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Offline mjab

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Re: Spring rate dilemma
« Reply #20 on: May 16, 2018, 02:59:55 PM »
*Originally Posted by Dilbert [+]

I was thinking of getting it re-sprung, but a local race tech guy reckons the damping may then suffer and it may be better to invest in a Nitron (+~£750 with remote adjuster) set to personal requirements, I

If you intend keeping the bike for a while then I recommend you take his advice and do it.
When I spoke to Darren at MCT that was what he recommended for me and subsequently fitted plus he changed the dampening on the front by adding an extra air hole in each side.

I have to say my bike now rides superbly and when I test rode the new 2018 one with its electronic suspension I found it less compliant than mine
4 wheels move the body
2 wheels move the soul

Online FredJ9

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Re: Spring rate dilemma
« Reply #21 on: May 16, 2018, 03:03:24 PM »
*Originally Posted by Dilbert [+]
Force x Distance = Torque (Nm)

Should be easier to adjust with the suspension unloaded i.e. on the centre stand  :028:

Brilliant!!
Yes that works much better ;)

Offline Fuze

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Re: Spring rate dilemma
« Reply #22 on: May 16, 2018, 04:18:02 PM »
*Originally Posted by Dilbert [+]
Force x Distance = Torque (Nm)

Should be easier to adjust with the suspension unloaded i.e. on the centre stand  :028:

Correct Dilbert.
  we both are.
I was using the expression of work done (Nm) = force x distance displaced
you were expressing Torque (Nm) = Force x  position of the force vector

Fred is using his strap wrench to lengthen his positional force vector.  We all need a strap-on sometimes.

Offline Dilbert

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Re: Spring rate dilemma
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2018, 01:02:10 PM »
*Originally Posted by Fuze [+]
Correct Dilbert.
  we both are.
I was using the expression of work done (Nm) = force x distance displaced
you were expressing Torque (Nm) = Force x  position of the force vector

Fred is using his strap wrench to lengthen his positional force vector.  We all need a strap-on sometimes.

Work done is measured as a load moved over a distance and expressed as HP (or kW, or PS), I guess it could be N/m (Newtons per metre), but not Nm (Newton-metres)  :008:

I didn't need a strap on, though I still don't have enough strength in my lumpy leg to get the bike on the centre stand  :021:


I'll never be old enough to know better !

Offline Dilbert

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Re: Spring rate dilemma
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2018, 01:52:41 PM »
*Originally Posted by mjab [+]
If you intend keeping the bike for a while then I recommend you take his advice and do it.
When I spoke to Darren at MCT that was what he recommended for me and subsequently fitted plus he changed the dampening on the front by adding an extra air hole in each side.

I have to say my bike now rides superbly and when I test rode the new 2018 one with its electronic suspension I found it less compliant than mine

Been in touch with Maxton's as they're only 8 miles from where I work (and about 15-20 from where I live) and they did the suspension on my Tiger 800, they offer :

TRIUMPH EXPLORER 1200  2013 to 2015

FRONT
The front forks on the Explorer 1200 are upside down forks with preload adjustment.  The forks feel very hard and harsh, this is because the forks have far too much compression damping, so when the forks hit a bump in the road the forks lock up and ‘kick back’.  The rebound damping in the forks does not help the problem either.  The rebound damping is very low, so when you accelerate round a bend the forks extend very quickly and this causes the front to get very light, very quickly and then compounds the compression damping problem as there is not enough weight on the front of the bike to make the forks move up and down over bumps.  The springs in the forks are too soft for the average rider weight so when you grab the front brake the forks can ‘dive’ under braking.  The forks cannot be adjusted to cure any problems, when you change the preload they make some things slightly better and other things worse.
The standard fork cartridges are 25mm rebuildable cartridges; we can revalve and respring the standard fork cartridges to improve the action of the front forks.  Although this is an improvement we are not entirely happy with the action of the damping.  What we recommend is fitting our GP20 fork cartridges.   
The GP20 fork cartridge are built to order, so we valve them, spring them and base set the adjusters for your rider weight and what you use the bike for.  They are designed to give a progressive action, so at low speed the forks are very compliant and supple but the more force you put through the forks the more the damping builds up to give you support when you are riding at higher speeds.  The GP20 cartridges fit using the standard fork tops to reduce the cost of the conversion.
The cost of the GP20 fork cartridges is £405.00 + V.A.T per pair, then there is an extra charge to strip and rebuild the forks with new seals, modify the standard fork tops to accept the GP20 cartridges and fit the GP20 fork cartridges, the cost of this is £155.00 + V.A.T per pair.   So the total cost is £560.00 + V.A.T.  After the conversion the forks are adjustable for rebound damping and preload adjustment.

REAR
The standard unit on the Explorer 1200 is very cheap; the unit is adjustable for rebound damping and has a hydraulic preload adjuster fitted to it to give you an option to alter the preload.  The shock absorber is the opposite of the front forks and is very soft, this makes the ride comfortable at lower speeds but when riding at higher speeds can cause the bike to be slow to turn, run wide out of corners and at very high speeds a bit unstable.  The reason why the shock feels soft is the spring rate is too soft for the average rider weight and there is no support from the compression damping.  The rebound damping in the shock is also soft so the bike can wallow around a little at higher speeds.
Unfortunately due to the shock being so cheap it is not rebuildable, so we can not cure the damping problems, but we can respring the unit with a harder spring if necessary.  The problem with this is it makes the ride a bit of a ‘pogostick’.  To respring the standard unit costs £95.00 + V.A.T.
What we recommend is a replacement unit, we supply our own Maxton NR4 unit which costs £460.00 + V.A.T.  This unit is a high pressure gas shock absorber with a floating piston to separate the oil and gas in the shock.  It is fully rebuildable and adjustable for rebound damping, compression damping and preload via our Tommy Bar system, which takes seconds to change on the bike.  All our products are built to order so we valve and spring them to suit each riders weight and what they are using the bike for.  We also base set the damping adjusters and spring preload for you.
We can supply a shock with hydraulic preload adjustment but this costs an extra £220.00 + V.A.T.  Our Tommy Bar preload system is so easy to change we do not feel it worth spending the extra on the Hydraulic preload adjuster.
We make quite a lot of shocks for ‘taller’ bikes and quite often we asked if the shocks can be built to lower the ride height a little, this is possible and would not cost any extra.

Maxton Suspension.co.uk
Laurel Bank
Kingswood
Frodsham
Cheshire
WH6 6HX

TEL - 01928 740531
FAX – 01928 740635
 
EMAIL – info@maxtonsuspension.co.uk
 
WEBSITE – www.maxtonsuspension.co.uk

I'll be getting the rear shock with wind it up tommy bar as I don't carry a pillion that often and it is easy to adjust (no strap-on required) and then see how I go with the front  :028:


I'll never be old enough to know better !

Online FredJ9

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Re: Spring rate dilemma
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2018, 03:44:15 PM »
Adjustment with the Eibach springs (Race Tech) is set six out for the front and 15 out for the rear. Feels very good. For two up with and without luggage, I'm still working on settings. Also have 5W oil in the front set at 130mm per Rach Tech's recommendation. Checked my weight yesterday geared up and with the top case on a very accurate scale, I'm right at 242lbs. I'll be taking a couple pounds off with the Arrow exhaust later today.
Fork springs are the 1.1kg, shock is 16.1kg. Eibach who actually makes the springs, did not have the heavier 1.2kg springs in stock. They produce when ordered and just happened to have a few 1.1's on hand from an over run.
Actually the shock feels better than the front...damping is good and have plenty of static sag. Front no longer dives upon braking.
I'm setting this bike up for the street only. Can't wait to put some sport touring tires on.

Offline mjab

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Re: Spring rate dilemma
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2018, 09:28:25 AM »
*Originally Posted by Dilbert [+]
Been in touch with Maxton's as they're only 8 miles from where I work (and about 15-20 from where I live) and they did the suspension on my Tiger 800, they offer :

TRIUMPH EXPLORER 1200  2013 to 2015

FRONT
The front forks on the Explorer 1200 are upside down forks with preload adjustment.  The forks feel very hard and harsh, this is because the forks have far too much compression damping, so when the forks hit a bump in the road the forks lock up and ‘kick back’.  The rebound damping in the forks does not help the problem either.  The rebound damping is very low, so when you accelerate round a bend the forks extend very quickly and this causes the front to get very light, very quickly and then compounds the compression damping problem as there is not enough weight on the front of the bike to make the forks move up and down over bumps.  The springs in the forks are too soft for the average rider weight so when you grab the front brake the forks can ‘dive’ under braking.  The forks cannot be adjusted to cure any problems, when you change the preload they make some things slightly better and other things worse.
The standard fork cartridges are 25mm rebuildable cartridges; we can revalve and respring the standard fork cartridges to improve the action of the front forks.  Although this is an improvement we are not entirely happy with the action of the damping.  What we recommend is fitting our GP20 fork cartridges.   
The GP20 fork cartridge are built to order, so we valve them, spring them and base set the adjusters for your rider weight and what you use the bike for.  They are designed to give a progressive action, so at low speed the forks are very compliant and supple but the more force you put through the forks the more the damping builds up to give you support when you are riding at higher speeds.  The GP20 cartridges fit using the standard fork tops to reduce the cost of the conversion.
The cost of the GP20 fork cartridges is £405.00 + V.A.T per pair, then there is an extra charge to strip and rebuild the forks with new seals, modify the standard fork tops to accept the GP20 cartridges and fit the GP20 fork cartridges, the cost of this is £155.00 + V.A.T per pair.   So the total cost is £560.00 + V.A.T.  After the conversion the forks are adjustable for rebound damping and preload adjustment.

REAR
The standard unit on the Explorer 1200 is very cheap; the unit is adjustable for rebound damping and has a hydraulic preload adjuster fitted to it to give you an option to alter the preload.  The shock absorber is the opposite of the front forks and is very soft, this makes the ride comfortable at lower speeds but when riding at higher speeds can cause the bike to be slow to turn, run wide out of corners and at very high speeds a bit unstable.  The reason why the shock feels soft is the spring rate is too soft for the average rider weight and there is no support from the compression damping.  The rebound damping in the shock is also soft so the bike can wallow around a little at higher speeds.
Unfortunately due to the shock being so cheap it is not rebuildable, so we can not cure the damping problems, but we can respring the unit with a harder spring if necessary.  The problem with this is it makes the ride a bit of a ‘pogostick’.  To respring the standard unit costs £95.00 + V.A.T.
What we recommend is a replacement unit, we supply our own Maxton NR4 unit which costs £460.00 + V.A.T.  This unit is a high pressure gas shock absorber with a floating piston to separate the oil and gas in the shock.  It is fully rebuildable and adjustable for rebound damping, compression damping and preload via our Tommy Bar system, which takes seconds to change on the bike.  All our products are built to order so we valve and spring them to suit each riders weight and what they are using the bike for.  We also base set the damping adjusters and spring preload for you.
We can supply a shock with hydraulic preload adjustment but this costs an extra £220.00 + V.A.T.  Our Tommy Bar preload system is so easy to change we do not feel it worth spending the extra on the Hydraulic preload adjuster.
We make quite a lot of shocks for ‘taller’ bikes and quite often we asked if the shocks can be built to lower the ride height a little, this is possible and would not cost any extra.

Maxton Suspension.co.uk
Laurel Bank
Kingswood
Frodsham
Cheshire
WH6 6HX

TEL - 01928 740531
FAX – 01928 740635
 
EMAIL – info@maxtonsuspension.co.uk
 
WEBSITE – www.maxtonsuspension.co.uk

I'll be getting the rear shock with wind it up tommy bar as I don't carry a pillion that often and it is easy to adjust (no strap-on required) and then see how I go with the front  :028:

Well thats a good explanation of the faults of the standard set up. My Nitron only has preload adjustment so for around the same price that Maxton set up looks more value.
You really wont regret it
4 wheels move the body
2 wheels move the soul

Online FredJ9

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Re: Spring rate dilemma
« Reply #27 on: May 20, 2018, 05:01:27 AM »
Finally got to go on a spirited ride in the twisties.
Let me just say my Explorer has been transformed to a canyon carver. Instead of wallowing and potentially running wide, it feels like it's on rails as it hugs the corners.

Offline Fuze

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Re: Spring rate dilemma
« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2018, 07:12:02 PM »
Awesome Fred!

Now spend the rest of your cash buying fuel for that Tiger! 
Safe miles, big smiles.
 :082:

Offline Fuze

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Re: Spring rate dilemma
« Reply #29 on: May 21, 2018, 09:29:02 PM »
Does the side-stand seem to work better now?  More secure lean angle while parked....easier to deploy when 2 up....etc?

 


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