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Offline texmix

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Tire cupping/feathering
« on: June 12, 2019, 05:29:23 AM »
Here's an interesting observation. I had the original Metzeler's on my 2017 XCA Gen 2 and finally got rid of them when the second layer prematurely was coming through on the front tire. The rear tire did the job until the end of life but I was never happy with them. My Gen1 had all kinds of tires but Pirelli Scorpion 2 was the one that finally convinced me. So with Gen 2 I replaced the Metzeler with the Scorpion2. After 10.000 km I noticed tire cupping/feathering. Very strange as the XCA has the WP auto setting suspension so there is nothing you can change. Also the workshop had no explanation. Cupping is due to suspension but I couldn't figure it out. It never happened before. I put the Pirelli GT2 on but after 2000 km I see the initial cupping appearing already so somewhere something isn't right. So then I noticed I put the suspension of the Road mapping all the way down to the lowest comfort mode instead of normal. So at some point I must have played around with the suspension setting and forgot about it. I didn't know the setting wouldn't go back to the pre set settings. I assumed only the Rider mode could be set differently and be kept as you set it. My bad clearly. So the reason I'm putting this in the forum is to avoid blaming tire cupping automatically on the tire or blaming the suspension system being at fault. In short, driving a long time at the softest suspension setting can cause cupping or feathering is what I think. I will see over the life of the rear tire if the cupping disappears because if not I have to look elsewhere.

Offline Regi T

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Re: Tire cupping/feathering
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2019, 06:08:54 AM »
Metzelers

Online TotnesSteve

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Re: Tire cupping/feathering
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2019, 08:13:19 AM »
Interesting. My PR4s and then PR5s started to cup at the same distance as yours. The previous Metzeler were worse.

I ran mine at 36/42.

I think the weight and power combined is responsible. But I have no way of knowing. Just an intuition that if you deform something soft (rubber) and squirm it against something hard, it will wear at its weakest point, which is the grooves. Causing cupping.

How would you explain what is happening to the tyre, in your hypothesis of suspension?
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Offline Simmo

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Re: Tire cupping/feathering
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2019, 11:44:47 AM »
My tyres (generally PRs) never seem to last that long so I'm afraid you are in uncharted territory.  :002:

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Online Icy

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Re: Tire cupping/feathering
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2019, 12:56:25 PM »
*Originally Posted by TotnesSteve [+]
Interesting. My PR4s and then PR5s started to cup at the same distance as yours. The previous Metzeler were worse.

I ran mine at 36/42.

I think the weight and power combined is responsible. But I have no way of knowing. Just an intuition that if you deform something soft (rubber) and squirm it against something hard, it will wear at its weakest point, which is the grooves. Causing cupping.

How would you explain what is happening to the tyre, in your hypothesis of suspension?

I think the soft suspension comes into play when you break. Combined with wrong pressure it acerbates the wear & tear during braking and tight cornering. It does have an effect on tyre wear but I cannot mentally picture what texmix is describing with known wear & tear patterns. But I have a feeling he might be on to something there.

https://lifeatlean.com/motorcycle-tyre-wear-guide/

I caused a similar problem by over-inflating my front tyre without realizing (had no TPMS back then) and I flattened the curvature of the tyre and simply gotten used to its behavior and didn't realize what I did until I changed the tyre.

PS: I can get ~20K+ miles from my tyres as well. I run Michelins & Mitas E07 Dakars
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Offline XCaTel

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Re: Tire cupping/feathering
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2019, 02:35:27 PM »
*Originally Posted by texmix [+]
I assumed only the Rider mode could be set differently and be kept as you set it.
You can decouple the damping from rider modes completely with TSAS from the menu and just have the damping as you last set it, regardless of rider mode. Maybe that's why it stayed on soft the whole time?

From the manual "If the riding modes link is disabled, changes made to the TSAS damping settings will remain active until further adjustment takes place, regardless of riding mode selection".
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 02:39:16 PM by XCaTel »

Offline texmix

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Re: Tire cupping/feathering
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2019, 05:25:40 PM »
I ran the pressure 2.5 PSI front and 2.9 PSI on the rear as we drive 2 up most of the time. As I have TPMS and carefully check the pressure the tire repair didn't have an influence. I didn't disconnect the TSAS though so why it didn't get back to standard I don't know. But glad you guys pick up on it and think along with me. Here's a pic of the tire but difficult to see but I hope you can see what I'm talking about. I didn't get the new tire as there it isn't even visible on a picture. But you can see it in real and feel it too.

Online TotnesSteve

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Re: Tire cupping/feathering
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2019, 07:34:42 PM »
*Originally Posted by texmix [+]
I ran the pressure 2.5 PSI front and 2.9 PSI on the rear as we drive 2 up most of the time. As I have TPMS and carefully check the pressure the tire repair didn't have an influence. I didn't disconnect the TSAS though so why it didn't get back to standard I don't know. But glad you guys pick up on it and think along with me. Here's a pic of the tire but difficult to see but I hope you can see what I'm talking about. I didn't get the new tire as there it isn't even visible on a picture. But you can see it in real and feel it too.

Yes, that’s exactly what I mean and I believe is called cupping; where the leading edge of the groove stands proud of the trailing edge.
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Online TotnesSteve

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Re: Tire cupping/feathering
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2019, 07:39:28 PM »
*Originally Posted by Icy [+]
I think the soft suspension comes into play when you break. Combined with wrong pressure it acerbates the wear & tear during braking and tight cornering. It does have an effect on tyre wear but I cannot mentally picture what texmix is describing with known wear & tear patterns. But I have a feeling he might be on to something there.

https://lifeatlean.com/motorcycle-tyre-wear-guide/

I caused a similar problem by over-inflating my front tyre without realizing (had no TPMS back then) and I flattened the curvature of the tyre and simply gotten used to its behavior and didn't realize what I did until I changed the tyre.

PS: I can get ~20K+ miles from my tyres as well. I run Michelins & Mitas E07 Dakars

If braking is a cause then it will manifest itself on the front wheel first, I would have thought.

If it’s a weight/power issue then it would affect the rear more strongly.

(How does anyone get 20k miles out of a set of tyres? Do you have an antigravity device? That could be worth a bit. )
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If not now, when?

Online Icy

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Re: Tire cupping/feathering
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2019, 08:16:29 PM »
*Originally Posted by TotnesSteve [+]
If braking is a cause then it will manifest itself on the front wheel first, I would have thought.

If it’s a weight/power issue then it would affect the rear more strongly.

(How does anyone get 20k miles out of a set of tyres? Do you have an antigravity device? That could be worth a bit. )

I think it's a combination of braking / acceleration and the way it creates unbalanced load under heavy acceleration / braking situations. And I also think that this would only manifest as an interesting wear&tear with certain riders and not with majority. You know, smooth operators vs spirited riders kinda thing... I'd think...

Hahaha. dunno, I think my definition of "useful lifespan" is a bit different than the textbook.
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