Author Topic: All right. I finally got one for you.  (Read 1744 times)

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#10

Offline CaptainTrips

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Re: All right. I finally got one for you.
Reply #10 on: July 27, 2021, 09:06:24 PM
*Originally Posted by JG_XRT [+]
I'm curious to find out if the issue can be diagnosed. 

I had the same problem with my quad, except it was below freezing to just above freezing when I had it happen....and I was alone, in the middle of the woods, with nobody for miles around.   :005:

I was able to restart it and get it to run for 3-5 minutes after letting it rest after the 6 or 8 times it stalled out, but I was never able to duplicate the problem and the dealer couldn't diagnose it, either.

Hasn't done it since, but I get a little uneasy when I head to the woods.  Is that banjo music?!
In your case, I would bet on carburetor/TB icing. 
"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test."   --   Robert M. Pirsig

#11

Offline JG_XRT

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Re: All right. I finally got one for you.
Reply #11 on: July 27, 2021, 11:54:50 PM
*Originally Posted by CaptainTrips [+]
In your case, I would bet on carburetor/TB icing.

I don't want to hijack the thread, but I don't think this is the case for me (although this is a better theory than any I had).

I plowed my driveway all winter long and in colder conditions with it and never had the issue. It didn't happen on the trail until I'd been riding a couple of hours, and the engine was thoroughly warm, and it continued to happen until the temps were in the mid/upper 30s farenheit and I got it back on the trailer.

Rode it with the gas cap loose in case  venting was the problem; no change.  Tank was full of fresh, stabilized recreational (no ethanol) gas as I have been using for the last several years.  Fuel injected 570cc V-Twin.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread...
Silly Harley rider......Don't you know that Tigers eat hogs?

#12

Offline CaptainTrips

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Re: All right. I finally got one for you.
Reply #12 on: July 28, 2021, 04:45:46 AM
*Originally Posted by JG_XRT [+]
I don't want to hijack the thread, but I don't think this is the case for me (although this is a better theory than any I had).

I plowed my driveway all winter long and in colder conditions with it and never had the issue. It didn't happen on the trail until I'd been riding a couple of hours, and the engine was thoroughly warm, and it continued to happen until the temps were in the mid/upper 30s farenheit and I got it back on the trailer.

Rode it with the gas cap loose in case  venting was the problem; no change.  Tank was full of fresh, stabilized recreational (no ethanol) gas as I have been using for the last several years.  Fuel injected 570cc V-Twin.

And now, back to your regularly scheduled thread...
Restart in 3 to 5 minutes. Long enough for the ice to melt. The ambient temperature range is correct for it. Engine heat may not matter, as it depends on the intake configuration. Add some moisture in the air...

OK, sorry OP. Back to your issue.
Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 04:47:34 AM by CaptainTrips
"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test."   --   Robert M. Pirsig

#13

Offline Dick63

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Re: All right. I finally got one for you.
Reply #13 on: July 28, 2021, 02:44:24 PM
Early (2007-09?) BMW F800s had a similar failure mode.  Bike would be running "fine" and then just quit.  Engine just seemed to shut off, sometimes restart immediately and then shut off again after a couple of seconds, sometimes no start.  Always started again after a brief period, minute or less.  It was so subtle that I think the first couple of times it happened to me, I just assumed I had butched the clutch or something.

Communication among owners via the F800 owners forum eventually exposed the information that common denominators were high ambient temperatures and low fuel levels.  BMW eventually reached the conclusion that the fuel pump was overheating and temporarily seizing. (Apparently, they relied on the fuel level to cool the pump.)  It was redesigned to be more heat tolerant.

There were many more questions and complaints on the F800 forum about this mysterious failure mode then we have seen here, so I do not think that the design of the Triumph fuel pump is suspect. 

But maybe there is a defect or impending failure in your specific pump that might make it susceptible to seizing, or similar, at high temp?  Makes your pump run a little hotter than normal, and then throw in high heat and low cooling effect and that's too much for it?  Just a thought.

My 2009 F800ST, one of the ones with a "suspect" fuel pump, quit on me while running 80 mph in the left lane (US) of a four lane commuter interstate, during the get home rush hour.  No left hand shoulder, I HAD to get over to the right shoulder, through heavy traffic, with a dead engine.  Not one of my happiest motorcycling moments.  At least BMW replaced the pump with the new design after the resultant strongly worded complaint ... 
Dick63

#14

Offline 2aRover

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Re: All right. I finally got one for you.
Reply #14 on: July 28, 2021, 03:01:04 PM
*Originally Posted by Dick63 [+]
Early (2007-09?) BMW F800s had a similar failure mode.  Bike would be running "fine" and then just quit.  Engine just seemed to shut off, sometimes restart immediately and then shut off again after a couple of seconds, sometimes no start.  Always started again after a brief period, minute or less.  It was so subtle that I think the first couple of times it happened to me, I just assumed I had butched the clutch or something.

Communication among owners via the F800 owners forum eventually exposed the information that common denominators were high ambient temperatures and low fuel levels.  BMW eventually reached the conclusion that the fuel pump was overheating and temporarily seizing. (Apparently, they relied on the fuel level to cool the pump.)  It was redesigned to be more heat tolerant.

There were many more questions and complaints on the F800 forum about this mysterious failure mode then we have seen here, so I do not think that the design of the Triumph fuel pump is suspect. 

But maybe there is a defect or impending failure in your specific pump that might make it susceptible to seizing, or similar, at high temp?  Makes your pump run a little hotter than normal, and then throw in high heat and low cooling effect and that's too much for it?  Just a thought.

My 2009 F800ST, one of the ones with a "suspect" fuel pump, quit on me while running 80 mph in the left lane (US) of a four lane commuter interstate, during the get home rush hour.  No left hand shoulder, I HAD to get over to the right shoulder, through heavy traffic, with a dead engine.  Not one of my happiest motorcycling moments.  At least BMW replaced the pump with the new design after the resultant strongly worded complaint ...

And a good thought, too.  I also have a Husqvarna 701 in the stable, and it uses fuel for cooling also.  Fuel pump failures aren't entirely rare on the 701's or KTM 690's, and the general advice is to always ensure adequate fuel in the tank.  If the new Tiger Tool can see fuel pressure, perhaps I can view that while riding.  Thanks for the tip.

#15

Offline CaptainTrips

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Re: All right. I finally got one for you.
Reply #15 on: July 28, 2021, 05:16:10 PM
Fuel pumps don't usually recover from overheating. And they usually throw an error if they fail. A friend has an '07 F800 ST who had this happen. Her problem was fixed with an ECU update. I think that most in tank fuel pumps are cooled by fuel flow. That's why it is bad to run them out of fuel.

But if the fuel pump is sucking some vapor and some liquid because the fuel is actually boiling, that might explain it.
Last Edit: July 28, 2021, 05:18:47 PM by CaptainTrips
"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test."   --   Robert M. Pirsig

#16

Offline KenW

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Re: All right. I finally got one for you.
Reply #16 on: July 29, 2021, 02:30:59 AM
The direction this thread is going makes me think of a fault I had in an earlier car.
After a service, the car was playing up on low fuel.  Serviceman replaced the fuel pump.  Didn't help.
That fuel pump was at the bottom of the tank, submerged, so cooled by the petrol.
The fault turned out to be the fuel return hose misplaced, which was causing air turbulence in the tank, so the fuel pump was sucking up air.
Not sure how this relates, except for the similarity to boiling fuel, but had to chuck it in.   :002:

#17

Offline CaptainTrips

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Re: All right. I finally got one for you.
Reply #17 on: July 29, 2021, 02:45:54 PM
In the early 80s I knew a guy who had a Volvo that would not run if the level in the fuel tank was less than half full. That turned out to be an accumulation of water in the tank due to a quirk in the body design that channeled runoff from the rear window into the filler while refilling in the rain. And it always rained here.
"The test of the machine is the satisfaction it gives you. There isn't any other test."   --   Robert M. Pirsig

#18

Offline mcchoc

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Re: All right. I finally got one for you.
Reply #18 on: August 04, 2021, 03:19:33 PM
You've got me worried now.  On the very rare days it gets above 65 F here in England, I'm thinking of strapping a couple of bags of ice cubes just to the inside edge of my knee sliders, and gripping the tank like a rookie at a rodeo . . .

#19

Offline NiK

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Re: All right. I finally got one for you.
Reply #19 on: August 05, 2021, 02:29:24 PM
*Originally Posted by CaptainTrips [+]
because the fuel is actually boiling
Seriously? The fuel can boil inside the tank?!
Now you got me worried!