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Bikers Chat => Time Out - General Chat => Topic started by: Rooster on May 22, 2016, 02:35:47 PM

Title: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on May 22, 2016, 02:35:47 PM
Just a simple poll of Forum members thoughts on whether the UK should remain in the EU or leave after the referendum.

Please keep any comments non inflammatory please.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Speedaddictedberk on May 22, 2016, 02:42:04 PM
I'm really not sure. A big part of me thinks that out is the best way but I have a lot of doubt.
There's too much scaremongering on both sides to make an informed decision in a way.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Dick63 on May 22, 2016, 03:21:50 PM
OH - so it is like a US election, then?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Bikerbuk on May 22, 2016, 04:08:46 PM
Having endured the Scottish Referendum, I see all the same arguments and the same faces popping up to bolster one side or the other.     Yet again, the public are being bombarded with claim and counter claim from both sides.    Project fear is most definitely in full swing, and why shouldn't it be.    It worked so well in the Scottish vote.     I honestly can't decide.    I was 100% Remain before this started, then I was very much leave for some time.    I'm finding the longer it goes on, the more questions I have.    My prediction is that it will be a remain vote.    People are frightened of change and thats where project fear will always triumph.     The myth is that a remain vote is a vote for the status quo.   Theres no such thing, especially within Europe.   Regardless of which way we vote, things will change.    One big question i have to the remain camp is - if it will be so devastating to the country, financially, security, culturally etc etc, why ask the question?   Why have the vote?   Don't gamble with what you can't afford to loose.     

Thankfully, i will be in Austria on 23rd of June.   Just waiting on my postal vote to arrive then i suppose I'll have to decide.   

So, yes it is like a bit like a US election.       
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: ColinN on May 22, 2016, 04:39:55 PM
Yep, it sure is time for the half truths on both sides and all the scaremongering that goes with it. Reading and watching / listening to all the dialogue from the non-politicians, seeing all the total c*ck-ups, time and money wasted, the enforced rules etc we have had to suffer (to some degree) over the past years, and the likelihood of what is to come if we stay in, I definitely want out. Two months ago I was on the fence, but mainly for staying in, but not now. Just take a look at Norway, plus, the EU now is not what it started out to be - unless we were all misled form the start!

Interesting traveling through France a month or so ago, and speaking to a lot of French people, I was surprised how many thought that they should have a referendum too, and a lot wanted out anyway.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on May 22, 2016, 04:51:53 PM
It seems that me that the "In" campaign is focused on what might happen if we leave, sighting everything from WW3, Ression, loss of jobs to a huge drop in property value.  I'm surprised they have not got round to destruction by asteroids or invasion from out of space. (But there is 4 weeks to go)

The "Out" campaign seems to have focused on the current problems within the EU and go some way to predicting reasonable alternatives. Hence my vote is OUT.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on May 22, 2016, 05:39:17 PM
To be fair, there are outrageous and utterly delusional claims on both sides!

The fastest way to get large numbers of people on (either) side is to appeal to their basic fears, insecurities and prejudices. For every well argued debate over meaningful economic ideas, they'll be 100 times the votes to be had out of falling, or rising, house prices. Especially if you "read" the Daily Mail or the Daily Express...

I'm tempted to say that anything that Nigel Farage agrees with and argues passionately for must, by definition, be a bad idea. But, more seriously, I believe that leaving the EU will be complete disaster for a large proportion of our currently successful industries and what the leave campaign have put forward to support their ideas that it won't be are little more than wishful thinking. In a world where we are likely to have the most dangerous and unstable US president we have ever seen, the last thing that we, or the rest of the EU, need is a damaging split.

I'll vote IN.





Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on May 22, 2016, 05:56:05 PM
Only 6% of UK business trade within the EU. Albeit, they are large companies with many employees.  And indeed are funding the In campaign.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on May 22, 2016, 06:13:49 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
Only 6% of UK business trade within the EU. Albeit, they are large companies with many employees.  And indeed are funding the In campaign.

6%!

Taking the automotive industry alone (which has had something of a resurgence in the last decade), it'll be very damaging to the export prospects of major employers such as:

BMW (MINI @ Cowley, Rolls Royce @ Goodwood, Engine production @ Hams Hall and body pressings @ Swindon), Honda (also at Swindon), Toyota, Nissan, Jaguar Land Rover (Castle Bromwich, Solihull and Halewood), Ford (Dagenham, Bridgend & Dunton), Vauxhall (Luton and Ellesmere Port) and of course Triumph (@ Hinckley!).

If anyone thinks that there aren't going to be new trade barriers and that we can open markets elsewhere fast enough to replace those that become much more difficult, or that overseas manufacturers will still be as interested in us without free access to European markets then they will have a rude awakening!

Why shouldn't these companies spend money and effort to protect their investment and the future of their business?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on May 22, 2016, 07:06:48 PM
OK, so we impose barriers on BMW, VW, Audi, Mercedes in retaliation. Do you honestly think the Germans will want to risk all their motor imports to the UK?

Then Renault, Citroen.

We need to go back to a Common Market, not a Federal United States of Europe run by faceless, un-elected Bureaucrats in some far off city who don't give a toss about our democracy - just filling themselves from a great big trough.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on May 22, 2016, 07:42:24 PM
It's this kind of argument that proves that such an important decision shouldn't be taken by a referendum!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Ogri (Trainee) on May 22, 2016, 08:13:28 PM
 :0461: But sadly it is..... Remember you are voting for long term progress here not short term issues......  What do you want for the next 50 to 100 years of history, most us will be dead when the real progress will happen. Me I am putting my faith in unity not isolation.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Prodded Dog on May 22, 2016, 08:21:29 PM
If the European Union was merely a development and progression of its original form, the European Free Trade Agreement (The Common Market) then I would be happy to stay. But it is no longer that.
It has become politicised in the extreme with Law, Sovereignty and decision making all subjugated to the European will. All controlled by the unelected Commissioners of the EU.
In this country if you don't like the current Government you can vote to remove them.  We can vote on our MEPs but they are powerless in the grand scheme of things.
The imposition of the EU will always takes precedence over individual states national interests. They claim this is in the interests of all. Or is it to justify the increasingly centralized control of the Federal State of Europe?
I was recently at a bike rally in Germany. Certainly the Dutch and the French want us to "leave" to promote a seismic change in the structure of the EU. If we go then they might follow.
I am avoiding the emotive subject like immigration, potential new member States e.g. Turkey. The Court of Human Rights, the Euro etc. to avoid being seen as a xenophobe.
All I can say is that what was agreed in the 70's and yes I had a vote on it back then, is so far from the todays reality that it is essential to put a stop, a full stop, on the creeping progression towards a European POLITICAL union that will forever subsume The United Kingdom.
I just want my country back, that's all.
The Prodded Dog
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: bobbylines on May 22, 2016, 08:25:24 PM
I,m a Brit who,s been living in Germany for the last 32 years,i hope that the vote  is not for Brexit ,but only because it would make life easier for me to stay here in Germany,having said that if i still lived in GB i might be tempted to vote out but i think this would be a big mistake in the long run but can understand when people want to vote out.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 22, 2016, 08:33:27 PM
Britain is no longer the big man it thinks it is! The only thing that is stopping the Tories tearing up hard fought workers rights, enviromental standards and human rights in the name of big business is the E.U. As for immigration, most of these poor souls contribute more than they take. The lack of school places, housing & the extra strain on the NHS is a failure of goverment to invest all that extra tax take, (would rather cut the upper rate tax rate for those poor struggling zillionaires). Take a look at some of the numpties wandering our streets. Do you really think that they would take up the slack if we stopped immigration, no chance, just not interested in working for a living! One other thing to consider is that Europe has not had an internal war since it was formed, I am sure that when any sort of nationalism takes hold in a big way, things can go tits-up very quickly. Nationalism is never good and any goverment that uses it to win an argument should be binned.  Anyway, I am sure by now that you now my vote, I'll shut up now.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: s187942 on May 22, 2016, 08:50:14 PM
 :0461:

As a Nation we also export a large number of brits - I wonder what those countries we are moving to think of our status when we settle in their country - A question for the Daily Mail and Express - and all the other right wing junk papers - why is it, that when westerners - mainly EU, but also US and Aus citizens go elsewhere, they are Expats - a nice positive sounding title, where as - anyone coming here is an immigrant - with a negative connotation.

Anyway - for me the benefits to workers as a whole is one of the reasons I would prefer to stay in the EU, and I think, on the whole, we benefit being in. 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on May 22, 2016, 08:51:09 PM
Figures from the HMRC website - March 16 being the last reported month.

UK exports to the EU for March 2016 were £12.0 billion. This was an increase of £0.6 billion (5.7 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.6 per cent) compared with March 2015.

U.K. Imports from the EU for March 2016 were £20.2 billion. This was an increase of £0.8 billion (4.1 per cent) compared with last month, and a rise of £0.1 billion (0.5 per cent) compared with March 2015.

I don't think we will have too much problem renegotiating trade deals.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on May 22, 2016, 08:58:19 PM
*Originally Posted by s187942 [+]
:0461:

As a Nation we also export a large number of brits - I wonder what those countries we are moving to think of our status when we settle in their country - A question for the Daily Mail and Express - and all the other right wing junk papers - why is it, that when westerners - mainly EU, but also US and Aus citizens go elsewhere, they are Expats - a nice positive sounding title, where as - anyone coming here is an immigrant - with a negative connotation.

Anyway - for me the benefits to workers as a whole is one of the reasons I would prefer to stay in the EU, and I think, on the whole, we benefit being in.

Well the TUC agree with you. Lol

https://www.facebook.com/GBrexit/videos/1726320724274489/ (https://www.facebook.com/GBrexit/videos/1726320724274489/)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on May 22, 2016, 09:43:57 PM
*Originally Posted by Prodded Dog [+]
If the European Union was merely a development and progression of its original form, the European Free Trade Agreement (The Common Market) then I would be happy to stay. But it is no longer that.
It has become politicised in the extreme with Law, Sovereignty and decision making all subjugated to the European will. All controlled by the unelected Commissioners of the EU.
In this country if you don't like the current Government you can vote to remove them.  We can vote on our MEPs but they are powerless in the grand scheme of things.
The imposition of the EU will always takes precedence over individual states national interests. They claim this is in the interests of all. Or is it to justify the increasingly centralized control of the Federal State of Europe?
I was recently at a bike rally in Germany. Certainly the Dutch and the French want us to "leave" to promote a seismic change in the structure of the EU. If we go then they might follow.
I am avoiding the emotive subject like immigration, potential new member States e.g. Turkey. The Court of Human Rights, the Euro etc. to avoid being seen as a xenophobe.
All I can say is that what was agreed in the 70's and yes I had a vote on it back then, is so far from the todays reality that it is essential to put a stop, a full stop, on the creeping progression towards a European POLITICAL union that will forever subsume The United Kingdom.
I just want my country back, that's all.
The Prodded Dog

Do you know? That has summed up my thoughts to a 'T' just brilliantly put. I'm going to copy that and print it.

Thanks
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on May 23, 2016, 01:34:51 AM
I live in New Zealand so will not be voting but have given my son who lives in the UK my proxy vote but feeling for EU are: -
When the EU was first set up it was countries with a similar GDP but once countries with a lower GDP entered it was one way traffic not only for immigration but Brussels spending and the cost of being in the EU is money that can be spent at home
The UK trades with the world not just the EU so I do not see an issue with the world trading with the UK once again.
For me its its leave the EU and restore sovereignty put money into the NHS and not be dictated to by an unelected body that does not have the interests of the UK and its people.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jugster Russ on May 23, 2016, 08:10:14 AM
The prodded dog summed it all up for me also.....
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NiK on May 23, 2016, 09:34:50 AM
*Originally Posted by ColinN [+]
Interesting traveling through France a month or so ago, and speaking to a lot of French people, I was surprised how many thought that they should have a referendum too, and a lot wanted out anyway.
You just gave me the opportunity to pop in this UK-only discussion ;-)

While I completely understand most of the reasons people finds to be wanting out, I would call out for staying in. I won't go over it all again, but just looking at "what's the use?". Apart from feeling freed from something (which would be mostly replacing a European yoke by American shackles), this would achieve nothing useful for the UK. I believe it wouldn't benefit to your business, nor your social system. And France is in the same boat.

Actually, the situation became more and more complicated these past ten years. We started an integration process which is somewhat stuck in the middle of somewhere (bureaucracy maybe? ;-). In this limbo of not done, not undone situation, I'm afraid the only choice is moving forward as running backward is rarely a smart move (and remember that it's a French saying that ;-).


PS: not being a UK citizen, I did not vote ;-)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on May 23, 2016, 09:53:22 AM
I had read somewhere that more countries were asking for their own referendum, its not a happy house!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: kenw on May 23, 2016, 10:26:50 AM
As an Aussie, I'm not voting.  But I have a question...
How much of the EU discontent is caused by the asylum seeker situation?  Is there pressure to leave the EU just so the UK can close its borders more tightly?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on May 23, 2016, 10:53:06 AM
*Originally Posted by kenw [+]
As an Aussie, I'm not voting.  But I have a question...
How much of the EU discontent is caused by the asylum seeker situation?  Is there pressure to leave the EU just so the UK can close its borders more tightly?

Partly. But the continual interference and law making from non-elected faceless gravy-train licking oiks in Brussels is my reason to want out.

What started out as a Common Market is now a United Federal States of Europe, but we can't vote out the law makers.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 23, 2016, 11:17:11 AM
If you want continual interfernce and law making from un-elected faceless gravy-train licking oiks, try the house of lords!

As for our wonderfull democracy, the current goverment is leading this country with less than 35% of the vote.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Letemfly on May 23, 2016, 12:13:58 PM
In my view there is one thing for sure, if we vote to stay in it will give these unelected idiots even more encouragement to think they can do whatever they want. There is growing unrest across Europe to the antics and policies and in my opinion we must vote out to support this and to force badly needed reform which Camerons efforts clearly demonstrated is futile when dealing with this arrogant lot. For sure they will pull the plug on those "concessions" as soon as the vote is out of the way!

At least if we vote out they will have to start listening because other countries will I am sure follow our lead.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Letemfly on May 23, 2016, 12:22:30 PM
*Originally Posted by redmerle [+]
6%!

Taking the automotive industry alone (which has had something of a resurgence in the last decade), it'll be very damaging to the export prospects of major employers such as:

BMW (MINI @ Cowley, Rolls Royce @ Goodwood, Engine production @ Hams Hall and body pressings @ Swindon), Honda (also at Swindon), Toyota, Nissan, Jaguar Land Rover (Castle Bromwich, Solihull and Halewood), Ford (Dagenham, Bridgend & Dunton), Vauxhall (Luton and Ellesmere Port) and of course Triumph (@ Hinckley!).

If anyone thinks that there aren't going to be new trade barriers and that we can open markets elsewhere fast enough to replace those that become much more difficult, or that overseas manufacturers will still be as interested in us without free access to European markets then they will have a rude awakening!

Why shouldn't these companies spend money and effort to protect their investment and the future of their business?

If they impose trade barriers surely we can do the same, they sell more to us than we do to them so think this is another scare story
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 23, 2016, 12:30:00 PM
*Originally Posted by Letemfly [+]
If they impose trade barriers surely we can do the same, they sell more to us than we do to them so think this is another scare story

Yeah! Thats the attitude, we will all stop selling stuff to each other and put up trade barriers, That'll solve everything!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Letemfly on May 23, 2016, 12:33:54 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
Yeah! Thats the attitude, we will all stop selling stuff to each other and put up trade barriers, That'll solve everything!

No what I am saying is it won't happen, its another scare story
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on May 23, 2016, 01:24:59 PM
So how can you ever believe what Cameron says.

https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/videos/957012897730285/ (https://www.facebook.com/leaveeuofficial/videos/957012897730285/)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on May 23, 2016, 01:37:02 PM
I think the second one was an impostor. No senior politician would allow himself to be filmed giving two directly opposite speeches.   :008:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 23, 2016, 01:43:17 PM
I would'nt trust ANY politician as far as I could throw them. And look at who is leading the OUT campaign, Boris the buffoon, this is the man who is playing us all for fools. To think that man could be our next prime minister should be enough to convince everybody to stay in. At least in Europe we could have 500 million voters. You would'nt want to upset that amount of people too much if you were a politician.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on May 23, 2016, 01:48:18 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
. At least in Europe we could have 500 million voters. You would'nt want to upset that amount of people too much if you were a politician.

But the Eurocrats who really run the EU don't give two hoots about 500 million voters or even if there were 5 billion. THEY are not elected and are totally outside any voting effect. They will continue marching on creating their own empires whatever 'voters' say.

If Boris ever did become Prime Minister at least YOU could vote him out of office, try that with the Eurocrats. 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 23, 2016, 01:52:51 PM
E.U law is signed off by all member states! Anyway, what are all these dreadfull laws that I keep reading about that are having such a negative impact on your day to day life.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on May 23, 2016, 02:02:43 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
E.U law is signed off by all member states! Anyway, what are all these dreadfull laws that I keep reading about that are having such a negative impact on your day to day life.

Telling us that prisoners should be allowed to vote. Purely a UK issue

Telling us that we can't deport convicted dangerous criminals

Telling us how many migrants we have to take.

Red tape all over the place if you are in business.

Telling us what our VAT rates should be

Telling us what decisions we have to make re monopolies and mergers

Telling us where our own fishermen cannot trawl where other countries can.

...and the list goes on

The EU is big, bloated, expensive, unaccountable and way beyond anything we ever voted for as the Common Market.

 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 23, 2016, 02:28:30 PM
Why should'nt prisoners be allowed to vote?

We can deport convicted criminals

We told them how many migrants we would take.

I own a business and I am not swamped with red tape

The tories (in coalition with lib dems) put VAT up to 20%

Thankfully somebody stops massive mergers (limits competition)

The lack of fish  dictates fishing grounds.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on May 23, 2016, 02:43:34 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
Why should'nt prisoners be allowed to vote?

We can deport convicted criminals

We told them how many migrants we would take.

I own a business and I am not swamped with red tape

The tories (in coalition with lib dems) put VAT up to 20%

Thankfully somebody stops massive mergers (limits competition)

The lack of fish  dictates fishing grounds.

Because in committing crime they relinquish certain rights reserved for the social majority like their freedom to roam, social contact

Not if they have a pregnant cat (human rights), have relationships here 'claim' they are likely to be victimised if sent home. (Answer - don't commit nasty crimes, if you do we don't want you here.) I concede that the HR Act was a European thing we signed up for - not EU stuff, but the European Courts overrule UK courts

Not if we stay in - they'll tell us when Turkey and others join. Just wait for the flood and our borders won't be worth a light.

Europe dictates a whole raft of business matters - standards, compliances, minimum wages, workers 'right's etc etc. It may have come from a UK law but I bet it was driven by European pressure to 'comply' with the Euro norms. Unfair competition etc

Europe dictates the levels of VAT on goods if thought to be unfair to other countries

Lack of fish due to overfishing when massive foreign ships raid our waters - eg Spanish

We are never going to agree but there must be something seriously wrong when opinion is so deeply divided. Basically I would like a situation whereby we trade together peacefully but stop sticking your noses through my front door and telling me what I can and can't do in my own home.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 23, 2016, 03:00:05 PM
I just want an adult conversation about facts on the ground, not hearsay and tabloid soundbites which seems to be the main points being banded about. Are our daily lives so limited/blighted by being part of Europe?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 23, 2016, 03:05:46 PM
*Originally Posted by Ogri (Trainee) [+]
..................Me I am putting my faith in unity not isolation.

And there you go  :086: ....those aren't the choices. What on earth makes you think that the result of leaving the EU is "isolation" ? Were we "isolated" before joining the Common market? ....No, so why would we be "isolated" if we now left the EU ? We are still one of the world's greatest trading nations and the 5th largest economy  :027:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 23, 2016, 03:13:00 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
.....One other thing to consider is that Europe has not had an internal war since it was formed,

Sooo....are you suggesting there would have been another European war..... if it hadn't been for the EU ? :027: Who (as in, which EU member state) would have started it then ?  I think you'll find the Eastern block threat was parried by NATO, not the EU....and NATO would remain unchanged in the event of a Brexit.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 23, 2016, 03:14:19 PM
The 5th largest economy propped up by the Financial Services sector. The biggest crooks on the planet! At least the E.U try to limit their greed, only to be blocked by the UK!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 23, 2016, 03:19:17 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
The 5th largest economy propped up by the Financial Services sector. The biggest crooks on the planet! At least the E.U try to limit their greed, only to be blocked by the UK!

Not sure what your point is ?  :027:  Do you want the EU to be allowed to have a severely negative impact on our economy then ?  :027:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: arthurmo on May 23, 2016, 03:57:29 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
Sooo....are you suggesting there would have been another European war..... if it hadn't been for the EU ? :027: Who (as in, which EU member state) would have started it then ?  I think you'll find the Eastern block threat was parried by NATO, not the EU....and NATO would remain unchanged in the event of a Brexit.

 :460:
I'm not anti european and wanted a better deal but the breath taking arrogance with which the UK was treated has led me to vote out.  My issue was that although it's not necessary an undemocratic  union it's never held to proper account financially or even politically.  I expect the remain campaign to win as we saw with the Indy ref people are afraid of change.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 23, 2016, 04:11:31 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
And there you go  :086: ....those aren't the choices. What on earth makes you think that the result of leaving the EU is "isolation" ? Were we "isolated" before joining the Common market? ....No, so why would we be "isolated" if we now left the EU ? We are still one of the world's greatest trading nations and the 5th largest economy  :027:
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
Sooo....are you suggesting there would have been another European war..... if it hadn't been for the EU ? :027: Who (as in, which EU member state) would have started it then ?  I think you'll find the Eastern block threat was parried by NATO, not the EU....and NATO would remain unchanged in the event of a Brexit.

I was thinking of the fact that some in the Balkans were still itching for a fight and have probably benefited from the extra attention from the rest of the E.U.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 23, 2016, 04:20:33 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
Not sure what your point is ?  :027:  Do you want the EU to be allowed to have a severely negative impact on our economy then ?  :027:

My point is that these people decimitated our economy and someone other than our goverment tried to put something in place to try and avoid it happening again. I don't agree that limiting bankers greed will have a severely negative impact on our economy, it is the opposite that applies!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Ogri (Trainee) on May 23, 2016, 06:56:47 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
And there you go  :086: ....those aren't the choices. What on earth makes you think that the result of leaving the EU is "isolation" ? Were we "isolated" before joining the Common market? ....No, so why would we be "isolated" if we now left the EU ? We are still one of the world's greatest trading nations and the 5th largest economy  :027:

To me honest my unity comment has nothing to do with money, economy and how rich we will or won't be. There are bigger issues at stake that require nations working as a team effectively to solve. Isolating ourselves hold these back.

Such as energy production for the future pooling of resources has triggered great advances in this, food production is now effectively balanced across Europe we can now feed ourselves more effectively without exploiting other continents.

Other future issues such as fresh water shortage and environmental pollution require a concerted effort not individual countries worrying about how much beer we can afford at the end of the week.

Believe me if problems like these aren't tackled which require resources beyond a single countries means our outdated ideas of sovereignty and national borders will be meaningless!

The world needs to act together not individually it makes me sad that our short term anger will dictate our children's future. Sorry I will shut up now.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 23, 2016, 07:11:49 PM
Well said!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on May 24, 2016, 01:14:13 AM
In the UK there was an investigation into MP's expenses which resulted in prosecutions and many repayments so on a law of averages there must be some of the same going on within the EU but who are they accountable to? They are an unelected body who if not checked will end up running the whole of Europe as a dictatorship as the elected governments will have no powers.

Surely the last war in Europe ended in 1945! Any others that have taken place (The Balkans) on the periphery of Europe have been addressed by Nato.

It would help for the populace to decide if it was possible to believe what the politicians were saying and they have got to the stage of contradicting themselves.

I still think the way to go is out as a country we trade with the world not just Europe.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Ogri (Trainee) on May 24, 2016, 07:54:07 AM
To answer your first point it's us, we have the same control over Europe as over our own government. Although it is true that the turnout for electing MEP is even worse than our own general elections which is already embarrassing.

I don't know who said it now but there is a lovely quote "You get the government you deserve" or similar.

We have many MEP's that we vote for regularly. I believe each country gets a proportionate number of MEP's to there population. They sit in the European parliament and vote on our behalf.

Country to popular belief the European commission doesn't create laws it is a group of our governments representatives that draft laws that are then voted on by the Parliament.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NiK on May 24, 2016, 09:11:39 AM
Interesting political joust here!

I believe that many of you gents are right:
- Voting is an essential modern age value and it shouldn't be overlooked.
- Having other nations dictate laws in your own country is unacceptable.
- Making business your own way is the core dogma of the world today (but for a couple of claimed socialist countries).

I also believe that many of you gents are wrong:
- Voting now is the ultimate illusion of democracy. You vote, politicians enforce what lobbies tell them to, you're disappointed, you vote for someone else who does the same and it goes on and on...
- The international community (mainly through the UN) desperately tries to dictate some behaviors to many countries. Israel, Iran, North Korea, United States, Russia, you name it. Should it be condemned for a country to genocide its own people? Should it be condemned for a country to invade another? Should it be condemned for a country to strangle another's economy?
- There is basically no difference between unregulated business and the farwest. The strong crushes the weak.


All in all, listing all the reasons for being in or out might not be the right approach. Simply because we live in a schizoid world which constantly contradicts itself, as we all do in our everyday lives (this, of course, includes my very self).

If we want to sound right or wrong, we can brandish lots of examples, reasonings and opinions.
If we want to be right or wrong, maybe should we just accept all the consequences of what we think we believe in and call it a day.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on May 24, 2016, 09:15:01 AM
I have just noticed Ogri you are in Hertfordshire which is where I was prior to coming here! Nice part of the world.
Even with UK representatives their effectiveness is diluted and what would benefit the UK does not necessarily benefit the rest, I know that's how democracy works but are eastern European countries even interested in what's fair and reasonable.

I still think out is better than in especially with the UK's island status which many of the others do not have which would make it difficult for them mind you saying that Switzerland seem to manage quite well.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 24, 2016, 09:52:41 AM
*Originally Posted by AndrewNZ [+]
, I know that's how democracy works but are eastern European countries even interested in what's fair and reasonable.



WTF!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Lopez on May 24, 2016, 11:20:14 AM
I'll accept whatever Spain's President say about this... So, please, Mrs. Merkel, tell me.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 24, 2016, 01:55:42 PM
*Originally Posted by Ogri (Trainee) [+]
....................we have the same control over Europe as over our own government.

...............I believe each country gets a proportionate number of MEP's to there population.

Can you not see that these two statements contradict each other ??  :027:  The first is delusional ............. and the second is the reason why it's delusional.  :033:

The total population of the EU is 508 Million. The current population of the UK is 65 Million. Very simply that means we have a 13% say. It's laughable to suggest we have/would have any "control" over decisions................. And that's before any further enlargement of the block.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 24, 2016, 02:10:27 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
My point is that these people decimitated our economy and someone other than our goverment tried to put something in place to try and avoid it happening again. I don't agree that limiting bankers greed will have a severely negative impact on our economy, it is the opposite that applies!

You seem to have missed the fact that the banking crisis/collapse stared in the US as a result of their domestic "Sub Prime" lending and global hedging. Is the EU going to tackle US Bankers too then? Noooo.....just ours  :009:  Anyway, cutting Bankers bonuses will not prevent a repeat of the collapse. They're peanuts in the grand scheme of things......but the migration of the banking business to another more "sympathetic" city would put a massive hole in the UK's economy. The greedy eurocrats were/are pandering to the jealous public (and that includes me).
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 24, 2016, 02:28:43 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
I was thinking of the fact that some in the Balkans were still itching for a fight and have probably benefited from the extra attention from the rest of the E.U.

There was/is friction ..... but with each other and themselves. The root is a post WW2 "sort out" following the collapse of the Soviet Block and the removal of their "heavy lid". They were essentially internal civil wars/conflicts. The EU (and UN btw) were/are impotent.

Now....on the other hand, if/when the Balkan states become EU members......any residual problem, becomes an EU problem.  :084:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 24, 2016, 02:39:03 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
You seem to have missed the fact that the banking crisis/collapse stared in the US as a result of their domestic "Sub Prime" lending and global hedging. Is the EU going to tackle US Bankers too then? Noooo.....just ours  :009:  Anyway, cutting Bankers bonuses will not prevent a repeat of the collapse. They're peanuts in the grand scheme of things......but the migration of the banking business to another more "sympathetic" city would put a massive hole in the UK's economy. The greedy eurocrats were/are pandering to the jealous public (and that includes me).

Oh well! You seemed to have figured it all out! We will just let them get on with it without any more regulation because we are sooo scared that they might up sticks and go somewhere else.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 24, 2016, 03:52:18 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
Oh well! You seemed to have figured it all out! We will just let them get on with it without any more regulation because we are sooo scared that they might up sticks and go somewhere else.

Did I say I liked it ? :027:. ......... But anyway, the Gov have made the banks split Retail from Investment. That means if the Investment (Casino) arms crash, they crash. We don't bale them. But we do support the arms that hold individual's money. They've also made them create funds to absorb down turns. Sooo...they've not exactly just "let them get on with it".
Scared is not a word I would use, but we should be aware that "upping sticks and going elsewhere" is a real possibility in these days of "e" business and would make us as a Nation much much less prosperous.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Prodded Dog on May 24, 2016, 08:07:57 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
I just want an adult conversation about facts on the ground, not hearsay and tabloid soundbites which seems to be the main points being banded about. Are our daily lives so limited/blighted by being part of Europe?
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
WTF!
So much for an adult conversation :435:

The Prodded Dog
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on May 24, 2016, 08:26:19 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
You seem to have missed the fact that the banking crisis/collapse stared in the US as a result of their domestic "Sub Prime" lending and global hedging. Is the EU going to tackle US Bankers too then? Noooo.....just ours  :009:  Anyway, cutting Bankers bonuses will not prevent a repeat of the collapse. They're peanuts in the grand scheme of things......but the migration of the banking business to another more "sympathetic" city would put a massive hole in the UK's economy. The greedy eurocrats were/are pandering to the jealous public (and that includes me).

Don't forget that the collapse of UK bank Northern Rock was a full year before the Lehman's collapse, and is generally seen as the symbolic start of the credit crunch.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Ogri (Trainee) on May 24, 2016, 08:47:35 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
Can you not see that these two statements contradict each other ??  :027:  The first is delusional ............. and the second is the reason why it's delusional.  :033:

The total population of the EU is 508 Million. The current population of the UK is 65 Million. Very simply that means we have a 13% say. It's laughable to suggest we have/would have any "control" over decisions................. And that's before any further enlargement of the block.

But we have exactly the same control as everyone else.... So it is fair. I can think of no reason why we should have more control than anyone else. There have been many regulations that we have instigated that other countries MEP's have been outvoted on.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: arthurmo on May 24, 2016, 09:01:49 PM
France has 1 more Mep than us and Germany seem to have the highest  at 96.It's fair to say we are often seen as the difficult child of Europe and some members are resentful about the rebate. To this end getting agreement on our views is harder the recent negotiations having proved this.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 24, 2016, 09:27:00 PM
*Originally Posted by Prodded Dog [+]
So much for an adult conversation :435:

The Prodded Dog

So thinly disguised xenophobia is acceptable but a sweary acronym should be challenged.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: arthurmo on May 24, 2016, 10:05:53 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
So thinly disguised xenophobia is acceptable but a sweary acronym should be challenged.

Why was the question he asked xenophobic? Perhaps he was referring to the problems Ukraine experienced in electing and maintaining a democracy,or the differences on accepting immigrant quotas from Poland, Bulgaria and Hungary within the Eu.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on May 24, 2016, 10:16:53 PM
"Are Eastern European countries even interested in whats fair and reasonable"

If that's not a xenophobic generalisation then I do not know what is. Although you seem to have extracted some hidden detail from it!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: arthurmo on May 24, 2016, 10:31:02 PM
It was put as a question not as a statement. I left out the huge elephant in the Eastern European room which is Russia.Although a democracy it appears to be a tightly controlled one and doesn't seem too interested in respecting other countries rights and even borders. The surge in NATO applications from their neighbours seems to confirm this.

Either way I'm going off topic. I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this blah blah as I said earlier I think we'll remain in as folks fear the unknown.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on May 24, 2016, 11:08:19 PM
*Originally Posted by arthurmo [+]
I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this blah blah as I said earlier I think we'll remain in as folks fear the unknown.

Staying in is as much of an unknown as coming out is and I wonder is people realise that?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Ogri (Trainee) on May 25, 2016, 06:39:08 AM
That doesn't add up though, we have for a long time been part of a large group of rich stable countries, doing pretty well, where nothing is going to change dramatically and if we stay in and we will have input into what does change however slowly.

Compare this to standing on our own for the first time in many years with what is now a purely service based economy in a world that has changed enormously, I would argue one is more unknown than the other.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on May 25, 2016, 09:53:46 AM
*Originally Posted by Ogri (Trainee) [+]
That doesn't add up though, we have for a long time been part of a large group of rich stable countries, doing pretty well, where nothing is going to change dramatically and if we stay in and we will have input into what does change however slowly.

Compare this to standing on our own for the first time in many years with what is now a purely service based economy in a world that has changed enormously, I would argue one is more unknown than the other.

But Ogri is that not the problem! When the EU started with the initial fifteen countries ( Austria  -  Belgium  -  Denmark  -  Finland  -  France  -  Germany  -  Greece   Ireland -  Italy  -  Luxembourg  -  Netherlands  -  Portugal  - Spain  -  Sweden - United Kingdom) who's GDP's were all similar but other countries have been let in that are not equal (Cyprus  -  Czech Republic  -  Estonia  -  Hungary  -  Latvia - Lithuania - Malta - Poland  -  Slovakia  -  Slovenia - Bulgaria - Romania and Croatia) or even close to it which has upset the balance so its not an even playing field any more.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 25, 2016, 12:25:12 PM
*Originally Posted by Ogri (Trainee) [+]
But we have exactly the same control as everyone else....

Errr...sorry, but that's a bit naive isn't it? As individual citizens of the USofEU ...Yes. As individual sovereign states.....No. 
Personally I want the UK to remain a sovereign state and to be free to make the best decisions for the citizens of the UK. I don't see why we should accede to maybe something that is not good for us (or worse) being imposed on us, simply because it suits some (or even most) others elsewhere on the continent of Europe  :027:

FFS...and I mean this seriously, you only have to look at the Eurovision "song" contest to view a microcosm of the EU.  ( I think we should pull out of that as well btw  :015: )
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on May 25, 2016, 05:17:48 PM
Dear Mr Cameron.

Every day I hear or read you or your side kicks scaremongering threats of what will happen if we Brexit.

For the past 6 years under your leadership and whilst in the EU we have seen the NHS starved of finance to the point of meltdown, education in crisis, university fees goes through the roof, economic growth decline or stagnate,  policing, cut to where there are 40% less police stations, house prices rise to beyond affordability  because demand has been allowed to outstrip supply.

We have seen our pension put at risk, our jobs taken by immigrants, our businesses restricted from free trade and our hard earned taxes given to the EU to waste on bureaucracies.

We have seen an uncontrolled immigrant apocalypse in Europe, and security deteriorate to critical risk levels and one country after another go into economic failure and need bailing out.

We have worked our buts off to stay out one breath away from a recession, while pouring millions a week into the sinking ship called the EU.

YOUR THREATS DO NOT SCARE US, however in your defence your ineffective management and leadership has made us a robust, resilient and creative nation well able to strive, thrive and succeed in the wider world a lot better that we have inside the EU.

Because of my renewed confidence in our national ability to join and succeed in the big world club I AM VOTING OUT.

I thank you for preparing us for bigger things.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Ogri (Trainee) on May 25, 2016, 06:57:54 PM
*Originally Posted by AndrewNZ [+]
But Ogri is that not the problem! When the EU started with the initial fifteen countries ( Austria  -  Belgium  -  Denmark  -  Finland  -  France  -  Germany  -  Greece   Ireland -  Italy  -  Luxembourg  -  Netherlands  -  Portugal  - Spain  -  Sweden - United Kingdom) who's GDP's were all similar but other countries have been let in that are not equal (Cyprus  -  Czech Republic  -  Estonia  -  Hungary  -  Latvia - Lithuania - Malta - Poland  -  Slovakia  -  Slovenia - Bulgaria - Romania and Croatia) or even close to it which has upset the balance so its not an even playing field any more.

None of the countries in the second part of your list could be termed third world and will very quickly catch up, in reality Poland has not only caught up but become a big economic contributor to EU GDP and therefore ours. The standard of living there is now equitable to ours all this since 1989 when they joined the EU. I personally have come across a number of English people that have moved to Poland and made a life.

I have said it before but this vote is so much bigger than economics though (although I agree Jonny biscuit the eurovision contest is dreadful!), The EU is a step toward the world realising that we need to broaden our thinking and deal with world issues more selflessly.

How many times have you looked at our own government and wanted them to think longer term instead of just getting re-elected? 

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on May 25, 2016, 08:49:35 PM
Make up your mind.

Do you want to be ruled by faceless bureaucrats in Brussels?

or

Do you want to be ruled by faceless bureaucrats in Whitehall!

The reality is that we have far more genuine opportunities of influencing the former than the latter.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on May 25, 2016, 10:38:14 PM
*Originally Posted by Ogri (Trainee) [+]
None of the countries in the second part of your list could be termed third world and will very quickly catch up, in reality Poland has not only caught up but become a big economic contributor to EU GDP and therefore ours. The standard of living there is now equitable to ours all this since 1989 when they joined the EU. I personally have come across a number of English people that have moved to Poland and made a life.

I have said it before but this vote is so much bigger than economics though (although I agree Jonny biscuit the eurovision contest is dreadful!), The EU is a step toward the world realising that we need to broaden our thinking and deal with world issues more selflessly.

How many times have you looked at our own government and wanted them to think longer term instead of just getting re-elected?

Ogri, I never mentioned third world so I'm unsure where you got that from I said they have a lower GDP on entry which upset the balance of the EU and many are still in that situation.

A good post by Rooster.  :0461: :460:
The Eurovision should be taken off because it is biased and crap anyway!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: kenw on May 25, 2016, 11:15:14 PM
Not sure why you folk are bringing the Eurovision contest into this.  It isn't just for EU countries!  -Australia was in it too.
(Yes its crap, but I'm not into all those talent shows on TV either.)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on May 26, 2016, 08:55:41 AM
I have just seen a Tony Benn making a statement on the EU and I think he's hit the nail on the head with what's wrong with the EU!
He said that what's wrong with the EU is that its not democratic, in the UK the government is voted in and is held responsible to the voters whereas the EU positions are appointed which is not democratic and accountable to no one.
An interesting thought.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/f0wFii8klNg (https://www.youtube.com/embed/f0wFii8klNg)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 26, 2016, 11:40:25 AM
*Originally Posted by kenw [+]
Not sure why you folk are bringing the Eurovision contest into this.  It isn't just for EU countries!  -Australia was in it too.
(Yes its crap, but I'm not into all those talent shows on TV either.)

Because it absolutely epitomises the way competitor (substitute EU member) nations think and work (with a few exceptions). The voting could be held without any songs being sung. They are not interested in which is the best "song" (substitute "EU proposal") only what decision will stand them in best light with their friends/neighbours, or who they perceive as the currently biggest bully. They have no intention of "playing the game straight and true", only voting according to their own interests. There's nothing wrong with that second bit btw., my OUT vote will be based on the same principle, but let's not kid ourselves that the best song wins (or substitute....that EU will take decisions based on the common good).
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: GlennSAUK on May 29, 2016, 08:44:19 PM
Straight forward, never been in any doubt right from the start, 100% OUT.

There's a big world waiting out there!

 :002:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on May 30, 2016, 11:28:50 AM
Just thinking what would be affected from a biking point of view in touring Europe. In no particular order

1. E111 would probably be redundant and any medical care would have to be paid for. Claimable of course on travel insurance.

2. Travel insurance cost increases.

3. Insurers less relaxed about European touring. Likely have to advise them of the tour (many already require it) and likely increase in premiums.

4. Currency - probably not an issue.

5. Exchange rate - no way of knowing which way it would go.

6. Border controls unlikely to change within Europe, but first point of contact likely more stringent.

7. Much tighter application of rules relating to carrying of documents. Probably have to produce passport for card transactions.

8. All European laws would continue to apply as they do now.

9. Exchange of information for speeding and other infractions unlikely to be practical.

Probably more I haven't thought of. I just hope we don't vote to leave.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NiK on May 30, 2016, 01:09:57 PM
9. I doubt it. Cross nations agreements do exist without further institutional integration. We have such legal agreements with Switzerland related to bank accounts. And there's not a less unwilling country than Switzerland when it comes to banking cooperation ;-)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on May 30, 2016, 01:13:22 PM
Re point 1 - by E111 I'm guessing you mean EHIC

Switzerland and Iceland are just two examples of countries outside the EU that use the EHIC scheme.

It is in the EU's interest to continue the arrangement as the UK has given £5.8billion more to EU countries for medical costs than we've got back.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NiK on May 30, 2016, 01:45:15 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
It is in the EU's interest to continue the arrangement as the UK has given £5.8billion more to EU countries for medical costs than we've got back.
I'm pretty certain that it's in the EU's interest to keep the UK "in" (whatever level of integration this supposes). And for wayyyy more than a mere 6 billion on a several years course.
Just as well as it's certainly in the UK's interest to stay "in" (whatever... well, you get the idea ;-) for a number of strictly economical reasons.

I believe that people way smarter/richer than you and I already did the math years and years ago and whenever they found something that needed to turn more in their favor, they started renegociation processes.

But I don't think the upcoming vote was setup solely for such objectively measurable reasons. I believe that populism was a huge motive. Like everywhere else on this World. Our whole system makes less and less people get more and more money. Since more and more people find themselves out of this cornucopia, they have to find someone/thing to blame, preferably without questioning the whole system in which we find so much comfort after all.

I'm just wondering when at last scapegoating will become an Olympic sport ;-)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on May 30, 2016, 10:37:24 PM
Everyone has their own views on Brexit.   There is really only one way to find out........suck it and see.  There was a time when GB had a huge empire and could stand alone easily. That Empire is long gone. Lets see what happens......... :002:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on May 31, 2016, 05:18:00 PM
Just posted back our postal votes. We are on hols on Referendum Day - in France!  (or Germany if the French keep up with their useless strikes.)I mean it, if France wants to put off travelers then simply carry on as you are :230:

I hope we are able to get back into the UK - so maybe we'll have to jump a lorry in Calais if the vote is out.

My vote won't affect the result more than just that one single vote (as in, small compared with all the UK voters) but I feel I have done my bit for democracy.


 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 31, 2016, 05:59:40 PM
*Originally Posted by Griff [+]
Everyone has their own views on Brexit.   There is really only one way to find out........suck it and see.  There was a time when GB had a huge empire and could stand alone easily. That Empire is long gone. Lets see what happens......... :002:

We still have the Commonwealth of Nations though  :027: .......although our membership of the EU has meant we've been forced to neglect our old friends somewhat (at least, commercially). Let's hope we can get back to a sensible global relationship. Only Brexit  :028: will allow us to do that.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 31, 2016, 06:04:57 PM
*Originally Posted by grumps [+]
Just posted back our postal votes. We are on hols on Referendum Day - in France!  (or Germany if the French keep up with their useless strikes.)I mean it, if France wants to put off travelers then simply carry on as you are :230:

I hope we are able to get back into the UK - so maybe we'll have to jump a lorry in Calais if the vote is out.

My vote won't affect the result more than just that one single vote (as in, small compared with all the UK voters) but I feel I have done my bit for democracy.


 

And only 10 days to go 'till the Euro's. I genuinely would not be visiting any of the games (in France) for all the tea in China, with such a high risk of disruption and terrorist actions  :110:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on May 31, 2016, 06:49:43 PM
The UK has the most right wing press in Europe, which for over 40 years has waged a relentless war on Europe. Everything that could possibly be painted in a negative light was headline news, without any attempt to consider the underlying reasons, most of which were actually sound.

There are so many things we have now that would never have happened without membership of the Union; clean beaches, safer products, better consumer choice, cheaper utilities, abolition of roaming charges in Europe (jeopardised by brexit), and even the Human Rights Act (ignore Sun and Daily Mirror propaganda on this, instead Google the injustices it has helped confront). If it weren't for the press we wouldn't be having this referendum, one reason I will not buy a newspaper.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on May 31, 2016, 07:23:50 PM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
................................ (ignore Sun and Daily Mirror propaganda on this, instead Google the injustices it has helped confront).

But you'll trust the internet/Google  :027: ..............Ah yes..because it's completely accurate and unbiased  :015:


The very reason the "Popular press" is popular, is because it prints what the masses want to hear. So of course it paints the EU in a negative light. It only reflects/feeds off the very large numbers who don't like the EU.
Like you, I never buy newspapers. I form my opinions through first hand experience (running a business, living and working around the world incl. the EU/Europe). Unlike you, I don't believe the EU has been overwhealmingly positive for the UK (but I accept it hasn't been universally negative either). Your list of benefits (and I assume you think these are the top/most important acheivements? Afterall, they appear to be the first ones that came to mind  :027:) is a very shabby return for submission of sovereignty to an unelected, unaccountable, corrupt, obscenely profligate, foreign political elite.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on May 31, 2016, 09:12:40 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
But you'll trust the internet/Google  :027: ..............Ah yes..because it's completely accurate and unbiased  :015:


 is a very shabby return for submission of sovereignty to an unelected, unaccountable, corrupt, obscenely profligate, foreign political elite.

On the first point, I agree it can be difficult. I think I've found a way to navigate through the massive amount that's out there on the Internet, taking a cynical view of everything. Essentially if something seems unlikely (for example, that the moon landings were a conspiracy) it's fairly easy to check how foolish such a belief is. This stands me in good stead, and I hope it allows me some sort of more in depth understanding of topics than the Daily Mail could ever hope to impart. But I don't deny that it's easy to fall into the traps of cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias.

As for your second point I'd agree; if you were describing Whitehall! Seriously I agree that the whole Europe thing has been allowed to get messy, and very wasteful, but I'm confident that there's a genuine desire to address these issues.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on May 31, 2016, 11:50:21 PM
I think to break it down to simplistic terms, if that's possible!
If you join a club and pay a fee you look to find the benefits to being in that club and that you are getting value for money, £350 million per week is a big membership fee for the UK to pay and what are the benefits that outweigh that fee?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 01, 2016, 08:29:09 AM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
.................... but I'm confident that there's a genuine desire to address these issues.

You see, that's where we differ completely. I don't for one minute believe there's any desire whatsoever on the part of the EU to address the list of issues that are at the nub of the UK public's serious concerns and consequent disenchantment with the EU.
However, if it's a Brexit win, you can be damned sure they'll then express a desire to address just about anything that will keep the UK in the EU.  Delivery of any change, on the other hand, is another issue.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 01, 2016, 10:31:47 AM
Perhaps Biscuit, when you folks do jump ship You might become patriotic and ditch that Panzer tank that you are riding and get yourself an Explorer.......... :164:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on June 01, 2016, 10:55:19 AM
  :460::745:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 01, 2016, 01:18:49 PM
*Originally Posted by Griff [+]
Perhaps Biscuit, when you folks do jump ship You might become patriotic and ditch that Panzer tank that you are riding and get yourself an Explorer.......... :164:

Ho ho ho  :006:  Well that has to be a record. You resisted the urge until Page 10. Well done.
It's obviously passed right over you that I'm for a return to sovereignty, NOT isolationism. 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 01, 2016, 01:21:02 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
  :460::745:

You clearly have very low standards (https://images.weserv.nl/?url=ukgser.com/forums/images/smilies/201108/comfort.gif)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 01, 2016, 04:51:37 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
Ho ho ho  :006:  Well that has to be a record. You resisted the urge until Page 10. Well done.
It's obviously passed right over you that I'm for a return to sovereignty, NOT isolationism.

Hmmmm    a GS owner on a Triumph forum. Methinks I am smelling some isolationism there  :002:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on June 01, 2016, 05:56:47 PM
*Originally Posted by AndrewNZ [+]
I think to break it down to simplistic terms, if that's possible!
If you join a club and pay a fee you look to find the benefits to being in that club and that you are getting value for money, £350 million per week is a big membership fee for the UK to pay and what are the benefits that outweigh that fee?

£350m figure is very wrong. Last year we were due to pay £18bn in fees, but receive an upfront rebate of £4.5bn, so that's £260m per week (a lot, no doubt, but already we see the devious nature of the brexit campaign). On top that £4bn was sent back to the UK in the form of subsidies, especially to farmers. Now we're down to £180m per week.

Then it gets harder, because it's not so easy to assess the value of the benefits from membership. The thing is that they exist, they may even be greater than the fees we pay, but none of this is made clear by the brexiteers.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on June 01, 2016, 06:24:14 PM
I could get by on £180m per week.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on June 02, 2016, 04:52:48 AM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
£350m figure is very wrong. Last year we were due to pay £18bn in fees, but receive an upfront rebate of £4.5bn, so that's £260m per week (a lot, no doubt, but already we see the devious nature of the brexit campaign). On top that £4bn was sent back to the UK in the form of subsidies, especially to farmers. Now we're down to £180m per week.

Then it gets harder, because it's not so easy to assess the value of the benefits from membership. The thing is that they exist, they may even be greater than the fees we pay, but none of this is made clear by the brexiteers.

None of it is made clear by either side a complete campaign of misinformation.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 02, 2016, 07:46:28 AM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
£350m figure is very wrong. Last year we were due to pay £18bn in fees, but receive an upfront rebate of £4.5bn, so that's £260m per week (a lot, no doubt, but already we see the devious nature of the brexit campaign). On top that £4bn was sent back to the UK in the form of subsidies, especially to farmers. Now we're down to £180m per week.

Then it gets harder, because it's not so easy to assess the value of the benefits from membership. The thing is that they exist, they may even be greater than the fees we pay, but none of this is made clear by the brexiteers.

If the decision was based solely on the economy, that would be a very seductive argument............ but it's not.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Ogri (Trainee) on June 02, 2016, 03:30:08 PM
The Swiss point of view....

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MsNXmfqQqOU
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: bodmin on June 02, 2016, 04:51:35 PM
Well, as a UK citizen living abroad (but not for more than 15 years), I've already sent my postal vote off, so..........
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 02, 2016, 04:52:44 PM
Very interesting and intelligent argument from that Swiss guy. But having listened to the whole vid, I didn't hear him once suggest that Switzerland would be better off with full EU membership ?
Clearly the current agreement, whilst not universally agreeable, is better than full membership.

One point in particular I found disigenuous, was that about immigration. I keep hearing statistics about immigration numbers/head of population. He said Switzerland has double the UK by this measure. Just to put that into perspective, a quick calc would indicate that, whilst we in UK have 330k net immigration, Switzerland would have 79k. That's a HUGE difference. 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: GlennSAUK on June 02, 2016, 08:40:30 PM
Well, the EU is a great success story, really? :745:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NH on June 17, 2016, 09:42:06 PM
So the arguments for and against leaving the EU seem simple really.

It’s based on each sides experts being more expert than the other sides experts, who aren’t as expert as their own experts, as they are more expert. Both sides experts say they are more knowledgeable and understanding of the facts because the other sides experts aren’t as knowledgeable and so don’t have as good an understanding of the facts as understood by the experts claiming to be more knowledgeable. The experts knowledge and understanding allows them to bend and shape the facts in the way they need to be bent and shaped to win the public vote. However the more knowledgeable experts with the best understanding of the situation bend and shape them in one direction, while the alleged less knowledgeable experts with the lesser understanding bend and shape exactly the same facts in the exact opposite direction. However the experts with the claimed lesser knowledge say their understanding of the facts is in fact far better than the more expert experts who profess to have the better knowledge and understanding, and so their views therefore carry more credibility. This is of course disputed by the more expert experts who are claiming to be more knowledgeable and with a better understanding of the facts, and therefore having a higher level of credibility than the less creditable experts with the lower level of knowledge and a lesser understanding of the situation.

So what’s not to understand then……?   :087:

Based on everything I've read, seen, listned to, digested, and thought about, it finally comes down to me filtering out the obvious scaremongering, lies, bullsh#t, bias, and selfinterest and making the best informed decision based on what I understand the situation to be.

I'm 100% voting out !

ps: I hope my expert explanation of the situation wil help other less expert  members to arrive at a decision that matches mine as I have a knowledgeable understanding of the situation that far surpasses the less expert forum members.   :008: :008: :008:



Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: shep on June 17, 2016, 11:36:10 PM
Living in sunny Oz for the last ten years, got out of touch with the goings on really
I don't trust any of them they all have their own agenda whichever side of the fence they are sat on
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: kenw on June 18, 2016, 12:06:07 AM
Now its getting really nasty, when you bring knives and guns along to the argument.
You'll get chucked out of the soccer before long, so why not the whole EU?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 18, 2016, 07:50:32 AM
Bad taste Kenw.  :182:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 18, 2016, 09:45:18 AM
Interesting that the stock market is taking a dive at the moment.  Nobody is putting any spin on that, just reality.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: kenw on June 18, 2016, 02:17:50 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
Bad taste Kenw.  :182:
Just calling it as I see it, Mr Cracker.  Doesn't mean I don't have a lot of sympathy for the family, friends and colleagues of the dead politician.
Nut cases pop up in every country.
Bad taste would be pointing out that if it had occurred in the US, he most likely would have had a military grade weapon, and taken out a dozen or more people instead of just one.

As for the soccer comment, I'm always appalled when I see soccer hooliganism and the gangs on the streets afterwards either belting sh#t out of each other, or wrecking whatever they can lay their hands on.  It mostly seems associated with soccer.  I don't recalling ever seeing a story or vision of fighting gangs after a basketball match, water polo, etc etc.
And it isn't confined to English (or Russian) fans.  We've had a milder touch of it here when sides aligned with opposing factions in the Balkans have played.
Maybe soccer attracts the more volatile fans or something.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 18, 2016, 03:38:41 PM
A word of advice if I may.....when you're in a hole...stop digging  :138:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NH on June 19, 2016, 07:10:07 PM
Interesting. I started a poll on the bike forum I run and that's currently running at 75% for leaving so quite similar to this one.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NiK on June 20, 2016, 08:51:38 AM
*Originally Posted by kenw [+]
It mostly seems associated with soccer.  I don't recalling ever seeing a story or vision of fighting gangs after a basketball match, water polo, etc etc.
I already witnessed such hooliganism in basketball, rugby and handball, though at a lesser scale (but with as much violence).

I think it's all related to numbers. Soccer is by far the most played game on Earth. And it's by far the most commercially advertised.

I came to believe that all of those sh*theads are only human. And the problem is (and has always been) the human negative behaviors. The more people are, the more destructive they potentially are.

When there will be billions of business dollars at stake in water polo, I bet there will be the same inacceptable events (safe bet, since it won't be tomorrow ;-).
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on June 20, 2016, 10:15:15 AM
*Originally Posted by Griff [+]
Interesting that the stock market is taking a dive at the moment.  Nobody is putting any spin on that, just reality.

And now it's going back up again. More to do with the price of oil and the Chinese stock market than the EU debate. The markets have surprisingly been ignoring the EU.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: KernowTrumpet on June 20, 2016, 11:53:49 AM
just spent the past week in Italy - the pizza is just too good to vote 'leave'
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 24, 2016, 08:35:15 AM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
And now it's going back up again. More to do with the price of oil and the Chinese stock market than the EU debate. The markets have surprisingly been ignoring the EU.

Oops !  Not ignoring it any more. 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on June 24, 2016, 08:59:53 AM
*Originally Posted by Griff [+]
Oops !  Not ignoring it any more.

Lol No. UK currently down 4% but France is down 8%

Keep the faith, it will go back up.

No pain, no gain.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 24, 2016, 09:40:03 AM
Sadly the pain will not just be felt by UK folks.

I wonder what Winston would have thought of this decision. After all he was a supporter of the United States of Europe.

Already the restoration of the border with Northern Ireland is being mooted over here.

Will Scotland have another referendum ?

What will happen to the price of Triumphs outside the UK ?

Lots of questions...........
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Lopez on June 24, 2016, 10:32:33 AM
The pound is going down.. Thank you, Brexit, I can buy Triumph's parts cheaper than ever  :152:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on June 24, 2016, 11:09:48 AM
I think you will find that they get more expensive! Most parts will be imported. And now with a delightfull tarriff attached and a weak pound! All hail king Farrage!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Lopez on June 24, 2016, 11:17:56 AM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
I think you will find that they get more expensive! Most parts will be imported. And now with a delightfull tarriff attached and a weak pound! All hail king Farrage!

But it will happen in a few years. Till then...  :082: And, even then, Triumph will have to move to an EU country, at least the parts store, if they want to be competitive in the EU market. Otherwise, its prices will be unable to fight against other EU bike manufacturers...
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on June 24, 2016, 11:22:26 AM
Hey Lopez! Forgot to ask, have you got a spare room! Looking for somewhere to stay for the next 20 years. I'm sure if I grow a beard that I will get through border control with my dogs pet passport and I can pay you in Scottish pound notes (As rare as hens teeth). Go on!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Lopez on June 24, 2016, 12:39:16 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
Hey Lopez! Forgot to ask, have you got a spare room! Looking for somewhere to stay for the next 20 years. I'm sure if I grow a beard that I will get through border control with my dogs pet passport and I can pay you in Scottish pound notes (As rare as hens teeth). Go on!

Mmmmm...  :084: Let me think... I know Scotland very well. In fact, even my first marriage's honey moon was there. So... I think I know how scottish are. Mmmmm.  :062: What about forgetting those pounds and talk about whiskey?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NH on June 24, 2016, 01:01:35 PM
It looks like leaving the EU is already likely to create jobs in the construction industry. It sounds as if Hadrians Wall is going to have to be rebuilt.  :015:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on June 24, 2016, 01:10:13 PM
My son in law has been arguing vehemently that we should leave the EU. Well to be fair, not arguing because he didn't actually know the arguments.

Today he's moaning that his holiday in Crete is going to cost him a whole packet more because of the exchange rate, plus he may end up having to pay a surcharge.

Serves him right for reading the Daily Mail.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on June 24, 2016, 01:16:52 PM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
My son in law has been arguing vehemently that we should leave the EU. Well to be fair, not arguing because he didn't actually know the arguments.

Today he's moaning that his holiday in Crete is going to cost him a whole packet more because of the exchange rate, plus he may end up having to pay a surcharge.

Serves him right for reading the Daily Mail.


So! He is the one that buys the Daily Mail!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Lopez on June 24, 2016, 01:28:58 PM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
My son in law has been arguing vehemently that we should leave the EU. Well to be fair, not arguing because he didn't actually know the arguments.

Today he's moaning that his holiday in Crete is going to cost him a whole packet more because of the exchange rate, plus he may end up having to pay a surcharge.

Serves him right for reading the Daily Mail.

Well... Google says that this morning, searches like "What happen if we leave the EU?" from UK users are increased by 250%.

To me, that seems that not everybody was thinking properly before voting...
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 24, 2016, 03:07:07 PM
[quote ]
Well... Google says that this morning, searches like "What happen if we leave the EU?" from UK users are increased by 250%.

To me, that seems that not everybody was thinking properly before voting...
[/quote]


Good point.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on June 24, 2016, 04:19:38 PM
*Originally Posted by Lopez [+]
Well... Google says that this morning, searches like "What happen if we leave the EU?" from UK users are increased by 250%.

To me, that seems that not everybody was thinking properly before voting...

Those would be searches  by those who voted to remain in the EU.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 24, 2016, 06:14:50 PM
Can't help getting the impression today that as the realisation hits with stock markets and sterling etc, some folks are thinking "what have we done ?"

So the leave folks are now happy. However they are still stuck with the same bunch of politicians. What can they do that is hugely different from their predecessors.  Not a lot imho......

I do not think that the majority of the voting public are sufficiently qualified or educated in macro economics, to make such a momentous decision on the future of their country. I would include myself in that category also.

 I agree that the EU badly needed reform but none of the leave politicians have come up with creative suggestions as to how that could be done. All I heard was emotional rhetoric......
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 24, 2016, 07:38:27 PM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
My son in law has been arguing vehemently that we should leave the EU. Well to be fair, not arguing because he didn't actually know the arguments.

Today he's moaning that his holiday in Crete is going to cost him a whole packet more because of the exchange rate, plus he may end up having to pay a surcharge.

Serves him right for reading the Daily Mail.

 :745: Oh, joy! Isn't that "instant karma"?!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NH on June 24, 2016, 07:52:28 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
Those would be searches  by those who voted to remain in the EU.

Like it !   :169:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on June 24, 2016, 08:05:42 PM
 :400:
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
Those would be searches  by those who voted to remain in the EU.

I'm not sure that is supported by the evidence. The following is from an article I've just been reading

"The main sociological factors that explain the voting pattern were age – young UK citizens voted overwhelmingly for Remain, while the older generations (who, to be frank, will not have to live for long with the consequences of their vote), voted Leave – and educational level (72% of university-educated people voted Remain)."
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: kwacka on June 24, 2016, 09:13:06 PM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
:400:
I'm not sure that is supported by the evidence. The following is from an article I've just been reading

"The main sociological factors that explain the voting pattern were age – young UK citizens voted overwhelmingly for Remain, while the older generations (who, to be frank, will not have to live for long with the consequences of their vote), voted Leave – and educational level (72% of university-educated people voted Remain)."

So the answer would be to bar all old people (say over 50) from voting? Or perhaps more acceptable to ignore them and hope they go away......and only allow degree educated people to vote also. Mr Hitler would probably have concurred, even if he was over 50 and didn't have a degree.
I'd like to know where the article appeared.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on June 24, 2016, 09:25:25 PM
*Originally Posted by kwacka [+]
So the answer would be to bar all old people (say over 50) from voting? Or perhaps more acceptable to ignore them and hope they go away......and only allow degree educated people to vote also. Mr Hitler would probably have concurred, even if he was over 50 and didn't have a degree.
I'd like to know where the article appeared.

Here you go

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2016/06/24/uk-votes-to-leave-the-eu/
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 24, 2016, 09:28:57 PM
Actually, funny that you should raise Mr Hitler. I only just learned today that Hitler came to power as the direct result of 4 referenda; this isn't the first bad day in history for referenda!   :003:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Batzen on June 24, 2016, 09:35:56 PM
Well, right......  most of leave votes been given by aged 50+ , young people voted more remain. So the young will have the problems the older people voted and most of this aged leave voters will not be affected by the problems they may have caused the youngers for their future....

...and the other problem is, patching up a splitted country.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: kwacka on June 24, 2016, 09:55:37 PM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
Here you go

https://whyevolutionistrue.wordpress.com/2016/06/24/uk-votes-to-leave-the-eu/

Thanks Travelman, I wonder how old Matthew Cobb is and if he's a Brit? There was a lady speaking on Radio 2 that actually stated most old people don't have long left to live so shouldn't have been allowed to vote. Suffice to say that I remember life before EC, or the 'Common Market' as it was sold to us back in the day - eg no mention of politics or higher courts etc. How many of us remember the unelected Herr Martin Bangemann and his proposals to limit everyone to BMW's shabby products in the 90's?

Truth is no one knows how this is going to play out, but it will need several years for anyone to make a considered judgement.

Interestingly, there are several more countries that may follow suit with a referendum, so we may be witnessing the start of the end of the EC......remember where you heard it first....... :038:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on June 24, 2016, 10:05:44 PM
I would really like to know how these statistic were collected.

"The main sociological factors that explain the voting pattern were age – young UK citizens voted overwhelmingly for Remain, while the older generations (who, to be frank, will not have to live for long with the consequences of their vote), voted Leave – and educational level (72% of university-educated people voted Remain)."

They just look "made up to me".
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on June 24, 2016, 10:11:15 PM
*Originally Posted by kwacka [+]
Thanks Travelman, I wonder how old Matthew Cobb is and if he's a Brit? There was a lady speaking on Radio 2 that actually stated most old people don't have long left to live so shouldn't have been allowed to vote. Suffice to say that I remember life before EC, or the 'Common Market' as it was sold to us back in the day - eg no mention of politics or higher courts etc.

Truth is no one knows how this is going to play out, but it will need several years for anyone to make a considered judgement.

Interestingly, there are several more countries that may follow suit with a referendum, so we may be witnessing the start of the end of the EC......remember where you heard it first....... :038:

Matthew Cobb is Professor of Zoology at Manchester University and 'mature' in years. Very much British though I see he lived several years in France.

As for other countries leaving, it's not so easy because they have the added complication of the Euro. But, as you say, we can only sit back and watch it play out.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on June 24, 2016, 10:13:34 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
I would really like to know how these statistic were collected.

"The main sociological factors that explain the voting pattern were age – young UK citizens voted overwhelmingly for Remain, while the older generations (who, to be frank, will not have to live for long with the consequences of their vote), voted Leave – and educational level (72% of university-educated people voted Remain)."

They just look "made up to me".

I don't know where the statistics were procured but Cobb is a renowned scientist, author of a book nominated last year for science book of the year. His reputation would go up in smoke if he was caught out manufacturing statistics.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on June 24, 2016, 10:19:07 PM
I've seen nothing but manufactured statistics throughout this campaign, from many high profile people on both sides of the fence. These look no different to me.

Voting is confidential, it only took place yesterday, they must have been made up.  Possibly an educated guess, nevertheless, a guess. 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on June 24, 2016, 10:31:21 PM
This looks like the source of the data.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum)

A poll (on the eve of the vote) that suggested Remain would win by 4%.  Like a lot of recent polls - wrong.

The degree education is a red herring as it suggests that those without a degree are less able to make an educated decision.   Nowerdays, the young are encouraged to go to university.  In "Older" generations it was rare for somone to go to university.  It does not mean that they are less educated.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: kwacka on June 24, 2016, 10:45:16 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
This looks like the source of the data.

http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum (http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2016/06/how-did-different-demographic-groups-vote-eu-referendum)


The degree education is a red herring as it suggests that those without a degree are less able to make an educated decision.   Nowerdays, the young are encouraged to go to university.  In "Older" generations it was rare for somone to go to university.  It does not mean that they are less educated.

Spookily enough my highest qual is ONC, but I manage a team of circa 55 peeps, most with degrees, some with MSc, how does that work? In terms of earning power I have surpassed a lot of my degree qualified colleagues, including the peeps I still see from school - 45 years ago!

My sons have BSc and MA, but have no more common sense than I do.......
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: supernac on June 25, 2016, 12:05:10 AM
Congrats, from the other side of the pond! A vote against globalism, I hope we have the same results in November :)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 25, 2016, 06:34:26 AM
*Originally Posted by Batzen [+]
Well, right......  most of leave votes been given by aged 50+ , young people voted more remain. So the young will have the problems the older people voted and most of this aged leave voters will not be affected by the problems they may have caused the youngers for their future....

...and the other problem is, patching up a splitted country.

Absolutely. I can only imagine what the feelings are like where you are but, according to the results, there are also over 16 million non-lemmings over here too; we can only hope that we don't all get tarred with the same brush!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 25, 2016, 07:10:54 AM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
The degree education is a red herring as it suggests that those without a degree are less able to make an educated decision.   Nowerdays, the young are encouraged to go to university.  In "Older" generations it was rare for somone to go to university.  It does not mean that they are less educated.

 :745:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Speedaddictedberk on June 25, 2016, 08:13:37 AM
Now the drum banging has started for another Scottish referendum. The apparently "once in a generation" doesn't apply if you don't get the decision you wanted.
Of course there may not be an EU for Scotland to re-join...

I can't be arsed.
If Scotland had gone independant we'd have got full financial independance just in time for the oil industry collapse! I'm currently sitting on an oil rig in the North sea, we've already had massive job losses, loads of projects canceled and large pay cuts. It looks like there is more to come.

And yet there are still fuckwits out there that don't think the biggest revenue earner the country has makes any difference to independent survival.

Emigration is looking like a better prospect every day. I hear Canada is nice this time of year!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: kwacka on June 25, 2016, 09:04:18 AM
*Originally Posted by supernac [+]
Congrats, from the other side of the pond! A vote against globalism, I hope we have the same results in November :)

If you get Trump and we get Johnson, at least they will have matching hair  :008:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 25, 2016, 09:14:01 AM
Your ability to pick the positive, out of what is otherwise a disaster, is a skill that I wish I could match!

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: kwacka on June 25, 2016, 10:07:00 AM
I learnt long ago not to worry about things you can't control. I'm also ex Royal Navy, and spent 22 years trying to make the best of a bad job - including going to war 3 times!!!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 25, 2016, 10:15:55 AM
Can't disagree with any of that! :028:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on June 25, 2016, 10:30:31 AM
*Originally Posted by kwacka [+]
Spookily enough my highest qual is ONC, but I manage a team of circa 55 peeps, most with degrees, some with MSc, how does that work? In terms of earning power I have surpassed a lot of my degree qualified colleagues, including the peeps I still see from school - 45 years ago!

My sons have BSc and MA, but have no more common sense than I do.......

Yes clearly all the peeps with Degrees live in Scotland, Manchester, London, N Irland and Gibraltar.  I live in the Midlands with all the low IQ people.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on June 25, 2016, 10:51:34 AM

The degree education is a red herring as it suggests that those without a degree are less able to make an educated decision.   Nowerdays, the young are encouraged to go to university.  In "Older" generations it was rare for somone to go to university.  It does not mean that they are less educated.
[/quote]

When I use the term "educated", I mean informed. Going to Uni. is not a guarantee that you will not come out thick, and not going to uni does not mean that you are not intelligent. Some people are naturally academic and others are not.

The crux of the matter is that without the uninformed, xenophobic, racist and little englander vote, your numbers would be vastly reduced. I am not saying anyone here are any of those things (I don't know), but they are certainly on your side. The right wing are having a feild day all over the place just now!

Watching the news last night and seeing people being interviewed with regards to the reasons they voted out!

"keep out em muslims!"

"place is full of bloody eastern europeans"

"coming here and using our NHS"

"they get everyfink for nuffink"

This is what liberating the uninformed gets you!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 25, 2016, 11:11:17 AM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
When I use the term "educated", I mean informed. Going to Uni. is not a guarantee that you will not come out thick, and not going to uni does not mean that you are not intelligent. Some people are naturally academic and others are not.

The crux of the matter is that without the uninformed, xenophobic, racist and little englander vote, your numbers would be vastly reduced. I am not saying anyone here are any of those things (I don't know), but they are certainly on your side. The right wing are having a feild day all over the place just now!

Watching the news last night and seeing people being interviewed with regards to the reasons they voted out!

"keep out em muslims!"

"place is full of bloody eastern europeans"

"coming here and using our NHS"

"they get everyfink for nuffink"

This is what liberating the uninformed gets you!

Completely agree with you there!

I only hope that, if there's a second independence referendum for Scotland, that there's sufficient time for the understandable disappointment of being dragged out of the EU (against your will) to subside to the point that any result can be the logical one. I'd hate to lose Scotland from the Union.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Speedaddictedberk on June 25, 2016, 11:33:48 AM
The thing is that 38% of the Scots voted to get out of the EU too, I'd imagine that some of them were Yes voters for independence last time round.

Hopefully if there is another vote for Scotland to leave the UK it will be after things have settled from the EU vote and people can make reasoned decisions.
You have to remember that 55% of us voted to stay part of the UK last time, hopefully if the same happened again it would allow the matter to be dropped and we can get on with our lives.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on June 25, 2016, 11:54:53 AM
Wee Jimmy Cranky (Sorry! Nicola Sturgeon) would call a referendum if the wrong colour of bog roll was in her toilet (This toilet roll is the symbol of the Westminster Elite blah, blah, blah). The SNP have used the same tactics as the Brexitiers for years i.e blaming everybody else and not taking responseability for their own failures.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on June 25, 2016, 12:02:54 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
The degree education is a red herring as it suggests that those without a degree are less able to make an educated decision.   Nowerdays, the young are encouraged to go to university.  In "Older" generations it was rare for somone to go to university.  It does not mean that they are less educated.


When I use the term "educated", I mean informed. Going to Uni. is not a guarantee that you will not come out thick, and not going to uni does not mean that you are not intelligent. Some people are naturally academic and others are not.

The crux of the matter is that without the uninformed, xenophobic, racist and little englander vote, your numbers would be vastly reduced. I am not saying anyone here are any of those things (I don't know), but they are certainly on your side. The right wing are having a feild day all over the place just now!

Watching the news last night and seeing people being interviewed with regards to the reasons they voted out!

"keep out em muslims!"

"place is full of bloody eastern europeans"

"coming here and using our NHS"

"they get everyfink for nuffink"

This is what liberating the uninformed gets you!

I agree with pretty well all you say.

I deliberately slipped in the degree thing to see how folks responded, and it's the same as elsewhere. The importance of a degree isn't in what you learn from it, it's that it's a test of your ability to learn to ask the right questions. A degree isn't essential to doing this but the right state of mind is, and a degree certainly often a short cut to achieving it.

It's interesting to see that there's huge momentum behind a petition to re-run the referendum. I'm going on hearsay but I understand it's presently over 1m signatures. Over 100000 and it has to be debated in parliament. That will be interesting, given that most MPs support remain.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: nerolab on June 25, 2016, 12:15:49 PM
http://theslot.jezebel.com/man-who-voted-for-brexit-is-a-bit-shocked-his-vote-coun-1782553004 (http://theslot.jezebel.com/man-who-voted-for-brexit-is-a-bit-shocked-his-vote-coun-1782553004)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on June 25, 2016, 12:21:51 PM
*Originally Posted by nerolab [+]
http://theslot.jezebel.com/man-who-voted-for-brexit-is-a-bit-shocked-his-vote-coun-1782553004 (http://theslot.jezebel.com/man-who-voted-for-brexit-is-a-bit-shocked-his-vote-coun-1782553004)

You could'nt make this crap up! Unbelieveable! These are the people who have just shaped our future.

Could someone please stop this planet! I would like to get off now!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BarnsleyBob on June 25, 2016, 12:55:42 PM
*Originally Posted by Batzen [+]
Well, right......  most of leave votes been given by aged 50+ , young people voted more remain. So the young will have the problems the older people voted and most of this aged leave voters will not be affected by the problems they may have caused the youngers for their future....

...and the other problem is, patching up a splitted country.

The issue of votes will ever be the case whilst 'the young' fail to get off their arses and actually vote in higher numbers than 'the old'.

It's as if some folk feel that those who voted Leave have no kids of their own and no concerns for the future, which is clearly inaccurate. I was one who voted Leave and I'm happy I did. I have a young son and I would like for him to grow up in an independent democratic country, whose own government is not subject to legislation from unelected members of some 'commission' in a different country.

I am not anti-Europe. I lived there for several years with the British Army in the 90's and was quite willing to be part of the allied forces committed to protecting the freedom of European people. I have enjoyed visiting mainland Europe and hope to continue doing so.
That said, I am 'anti-EU'. I dislike that the European Common Market has become very political. It is too powerful, too restrictive and too unaccountable. It is not what the UK signed up to back in the 70's which was effectively an agreement for free trade. As I've already said, I do not want unelected (by ordinary voters) bureaucrats forcing legislation on our country to which we seem to have no realistic right to challenge or reject.

I am not anti-immigration. This issue has been over-hyped and mis-used by BOTH sides (In/Out) of the argument. All countries benefit from some migration but, by the same token, migration also needs to have some form of restriction be it in the form of numbers, skills you can bring and the ability not to be a burden on your new country of residence. It works elsewhere, so why not here?
It does make me angry that some use it as the main reason to leave EU but likewise it makes me very angry for people to be instantly accused of racism, purely for raising and speaking about an issue which is a very important for ANY country.

The Economy. Well this is the big unknown isn't it? I'm no economist but there are arguments and speculation for both sides. What seems to be clear post Referendum (I won't say Brexit because we haven't left yet) is that senior politicians and figures from business & finance are coming out and making statements to the effect that the British economy is robust enough to weather the uncertain period to follow.
Personally again, I do not see why Britain as a country cannot 'survive' out of the EU. There are many countries around the world who are not in the EU. Many have (apparently) smaller economies than the UK and yet, they get by perfectly well. How can this be?

When all is said and done, there are many issues to resolve and much work needed. My hope is that now the referendum is over, people from both sides of the campaign can accept the result with a bit of maturity, a little less hysteria and get on with making sure this great country of ours remains stable and relatively prosperous.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 25, 2016, 01:37:18 PM
It's good to hear a rational argument for leaving the EU there. I don't agree with it, but I can respect it.

Right now, I'm so upset by what's happened that I'm trying to get away from it for a bit, but it's impossible - it's everywhere and will continue to be so for a very long time to come.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 25, 2016, 02:09:25 PM
FFS give yerselves a shake and move on............. It's done. The people have spoken. No-one died. Moving forward, the money men will still make money. The markets will recover. Businesses will still want to sell their products and services and businesses/people will still want/need to buy them. The UK will negotiate terms of trade and ongoing relationship with what remains of the EU. It will also trade openly with the rest of the world (there's an awful lot of that out there too btw). The £ will settle at whatever exchange rate the market determines (just like it alwas has) and that will determine the attractiveness of our products and services abroad (just like it always has). The future is bright (even if we need to weather a storm first). It's hysteria that's going to create inertia in the short term and that's because some arses crimp when anything changes.
As I said, it's done and already about time folks started to get over it and project a more positive face to the outside world, instead of bleating on and perversely creating the environment for the doom and gloom predictions to flourish.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BarnsleyBob on June 25, 2016, 02:15:06 PM
*Originally Posted by redmerle [+]
It's good to hear a rational argument for leaving the EU there. I don't agree with it, but I can respect it.

Right now, I'm so upset by what's happened that I'm trying to get away from it for a bit, but it's impossible - it's everywhere and will continue to be so for a very long time to come.

Mate, so am I (trying to avoid the reporting that is) to be honest. Have a beer or go for a ride. The sun will still rise and set, it'll still piss down when we get the bikes out and we're all still the same folk we were on the 22nd; we all eat, sleep, cock up, love, laugh, get scared.

The world won't stop turning and there's plenty of it out there.  :018: :031:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on June 25, 2016, 02:41:17 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
FFS give yerselves a shake and move on............. It's done. 

Christ! Give us a minute! It only happened yesterday.

And I still think that you are over simplifying it - Sorry, can't help myself!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 25, 2016, 03:00:15 PM
*Originally Posted by BarnsleyBob [+]
Mate, so am I (trying to avoid the reporting that is) to be honest. Have a beer or go for a ride. The sun will still rise and set, it'll still piss down when we get the bikes out and we're all still the same folk we were on the 22nd; we all eat, sleep, cock up, love, laugh, get scared.

The world won't stop turning and there's plenty of it out there.  :018: :031:

 :028:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: DaMonk45 on June 25, 2016, 03:03:46 PM
What I am getting out of this is that nobody knows yet what or how things will happen.
Each side has its own 'experts'. Can both sides be right?
Keep your head down and hang on its going to be a ride no mater which you voted for.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: mjab on June 25, 2016, 03:05:39 PM
*Originally Posted by Batzen [+]
Well, right......  most of leave votes been given by aged 50+ , young people voted more remain.

Where did you get this from?

How do they know?

I went into a room and was ticked off a list to say I was voting. I was given a piece of paper that boxes on it ( Yes and No) and the question and I went to a voting booth. I did not give my date of birth on the form or my name. So how does anyone know what way I voted or if I even put one tick, 2 ticks or nothing on the piece of paper. 

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Phil on June 25, 2016, 08:30:42 PM
Fine words, Barnsley Bob.
You put it much better than I ever could, but I'm 100% with your logic.
Phil :)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 25, 2016, 08:55:21 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
FFS give yerselves a shake and move on............. It's done. The people have spoken. No-one died. Moving forward, the money men will still make money. The markets will recover. Businesses will still want to sell their products and services and businesses/people will still want/need to buy them. The UK will negotiate terms of trade and ongoing relationship with what remains of the EU. It will also trade openly with the rest of the world (there's an awful lot of that out there too btw). The £ will settle at whatever exchange rate the market determines (just like it alwas has) and that will determine the attractiveness of our products and services abroad (just like it always has). The future is bright (even if we need to weather a storm first). It's hysteria that's going to create inertia in the short term and that's because some arses crimp when anything changes.
As I said, it's done and already about time folks started to get over it and project a more positive face to the outside world, instead of bleating on and perversely creating the environment for the doom and gloom predictions to flourish.

So Brave, so fearless........
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 25, 2016, 09:01:20 PM
*Originally Posted by nerolab [+]
http://theslot.jezebel.com/man-who-voted-for-brexit-is-a-bit-shocked-his-vote-coun-1782553004 (http://theslot.jezebel.com/man-who-voted-for-brexit-is-a-bit-shocked-his-vote-coun-1782553004)

We have a name for someone like that over here. It begins with a "g" and ends with an "e".  I suspect that there were many more like him in your polling booths on referendum day.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Lineman#1 on June 25, 2016, 09:10:51 PM
No matter what, in or out we will still have to go to work, pay tax to earn, spend and save money. Then smile when you get f##ked up the arse by the EU or the English government.
wishing everyone all the best for the future :821:
Regards
Lineman
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: SteveL on June 25, 2016, 09:16:29 PM
I haven't commented on this issue as i'm not really politically or economically savvy or maybe not spent enough time listening and learning,
anyway I was torn when at the polling station but still voted in,
now I applaud all the people with the balls that said out, after initial uncertainty I think the future will be ok  :002:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 25, 2016, 09:50:31 PM
For someone who feels that they aren't "politically or economically savvy", that's pretty impressive to come to that conclusion so quickly.

I'm hoping that you must be something that you're aware of that the Government, the City and and industry in general aren't.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 25, 2016, 10:55:03 PM
*Originally Posted by Griff [+]
So Brave, so fearless........

I'm actually neither.....but thankyou anyway  :028:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: owl on June 25, 2016, 11:15:41 PM
*Originally Posted by Griff [+]
We have a name for someone like that over here. It begins with a "g" and ends with an "e".  I suspect that there were many more like him in your polling booths on referendum day.

Gentile?

Geordie?

Genie?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 26, 2016, 09:36:19 AM
*Originally Posted by owl [+]
Gentile?

Geordie?

Genie?

Nah, not appropriate words. Look at the vid clip again.   Keep trying....... :001:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: owl on June 26, 2016, 10:00:08 AM
Groupie?  :187:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: waz2068 on June 26, 2016, 10:55:23 AM
We left 200 years ago..... :164: :164:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 26, 2016, 07:40:41 PM
*Originally Posted by owl [+]
Groupie?  :187:

Clue. Not a flattering word. The third letter is B and the fourth is S
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on June 26, 2016, 11:31:22 PM
With all that is going on with the UK leaving the EU and sad attitude that's raised its head on FB I found the link below very interesting its 12 minutes of an MEP giving his take on leaving the EU and making him unemployed at the Oxford University Society.
Fo the record as I now live in NZ I did not vote.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: gauldie on June 27, 2016, 06:08:09 AM
OK, I stole this from elsewhere, but as far as I am concerned, this is the only sensible thing I've read since the whole thing went arse over tit;

Right. Fuck this. We're ALL up sh#t creek and we need a paddle. Now, not in three months.

Fellow Remain voters: Enough already. Yes, we're all pissed off but navel gazing ain't gonna help. Not all 17 million Leave voters can possibly be racist northern pensioners without an O level to their name. Maybe they have a point about this quitting the EU thing? Maybe not. Whatever, we are where we are and no amount a whinging is gonna change that. Allegedly we're the intelligent ones, so get your thinking caps on.

Leave voters. Well done. Good game. We hear you. Now you need to get stuck in to the aftermath and not just piss off back to Wetherspoons. (Just banter, twats!). And the first person to say they "want their country back" gets deported to fucking Gibraltar. OK?

Politicians.

David. Fuck off. Shut the door behind you. Now.

George. You may be a twat but you're our twat. Plus you know the passwords for our Junior Savers account. Get your calculator. Drop the face-like-a-slapped-ass routine. You're on.

Boris. Sorry mate. That photo of you abseiling by your scrotum over the London Olympics while waving a Union Jack can't ever be un-taken. Plus, you'll never be able to appear on Question Time again without some sturdy Glaswegian nurse asking where the fuck her 350 million quid is. Not only will she have a very good point, she'll be wearing a T shirt that shows you gurning in front of that fucking bus! No captains hat for you I'm afraid.

Theresa. You're in charge love. Get the biggest shoulder pads you've got. We need Ming The Merciless in drag and you'll scare the sh#t out of 'em.

Nicola. Yep. Fair cop. You probably could get us on a technicality, as could London. But we fucking love shortbread. And oil. And to be honest you're probably the best politician we've got, so we need you on side. Sort your lot out and we promise never to mention that Jimmy Krankie thing again (although it is pretty uncanny) and we'll make you a Dame once we're sorted. Bring Ruth Davidson. She kicks ass.

Opposition party. We'll need one. Someone take Jeremy and John back to the British Legion Club where you found them. Take Nigel as well. Give back their sandals, buy them a pint, then go to Heathrow and collect David Milliband. Fuck it. Lets gets Ed Balls as well. He keeps George on his toes. I think he works on the lottery kiosk at Morrisons now?

Oh. And Mark Carney. Give him a knighthood and tell him to keep that sh#t coming. We definitely need more of that good sh#t!

Everyone set? Right. Hold the Easyjet. We're going to Brussels and this ain't no hen party.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: AndrewNZ on June 27, 2016, 06:31:43 AM
 :460: Made me laugh but  :0461: I think UK politicians had their heads so far up their arses that they missed what was going on and have now to sort it out and I honestly believe that it is sortable and Britain will be Great again although "Everyone" has to do their bit.
From here in NZ some politicians are saying they saw it coming or something like it and none of the think much of the EU anyhow.
Here and in Aussie "Poms" are known for whinging so please stop living up to their expectations.  :158:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 27, 2016, 06:41:30 AM
*Originally Posted by gauldie [+]
OK, I stole this from elsewhere, but as far as I am concerned, this is the only sensible thing I've read since the whole thing went arse over tit;

Right.  this. We're ALL up sh#t creek and we need a paddle. Now, not in three months.

Fellow Remain voters: Enough already. Yes, we're all pissed off but navel gazing ain't gonna help. Not all 17 million Leave voters can possibly be racist northern pensioners without an O level to their name. Maybe they have a point about this quitting the EU thing? Maybe not. Whatever, we are where we are and no amount a whinging is gonna change that. Allegedly we're the intelligent ones, so get your thinking caps on.

Leave voters. Well done. Good game. We hear you. Now you need to get stuck in to the aftermath and not just piss off back to Wetherspoons. (Just banter, twats!). And the first person to say they "want their country back" gets deported to ing Gibraltar. OK?

Politicians.

David.  off. Shut the door behind you. Now.

George. You may be a twat but you're our twat. Plus you know the passwords for our Junior Savers account. Get your calculator. Drop the face-like-a-slapped-ass routine. You're on.

Boris. Sorry mate. That photo of you abseiling by your scrotum over the London Olympics while waving a Union Jack can't ever be un-taken. Plus, you'll never be able to appear on Question Time again without some sturdy Glaswegian nurse asking where the  her 350 million quid is. Not only will she have a very good point, she'll be wearing a T shirt that shows you gurning in front of that ing bus! No captains hat for you I'm afraid.

Theresa. You're in charge love. Get the biggest shoulder pads you've got. We need Ming The Merciless in drag and you'll scare the sh#t out of 'em.

Nicola. Yep. Fair cop. You probably could get us on a technicality, as could London. But we ing love shortbread. And oil. And to be honest you're probably the best politician we've got, so we need you on side. Sort your lot out and we promise never to mention that Jimmy Krankie thing again (although it is pretty uncanny) and we'll make you a Dame once we're sorted. Bring Ruth Davidson. She kicks ass.

Opposition party. We'll need one. Someone take Jeremy and John back to the British Legion Club where you found them. Take Nigel as well. Give back their sandals, buy them a pint, then go to Heathrow and collect David Milliband.  it. Lets gets Ed Balls as well. He keeps George on his toes. I think he works on the lottery kiosk at Morrisons now?

Oh. And Mark Carney. Give him a knighthood and tell him to keep that sh#t coming. We definitely need more of that good sh#t!

Everyone set? Right. Hold the Easyjet. We're going to Brussels and this ain't no hen party.


 :745:

Thank you, I feel a little bit better now!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 27, 2016, 10:01:51 AM
The elected Government of the UK asked he people if they wanted to remain part of the EU, or Leave the EU. The Electorate of the UK gave their answer and now the UK Government are mandated to carry that answer through.  They did not ask "How?" it should be done. They did not ask "When?" it should be done by. They did not ask "Who?" should do it....All of those are the responsibility of the UK Government (irrespective of whoever that is, or should become). That's what they're elected for. Remember, the UK was not "expelled" from the EU. We made a sovereign decision. Our government and civil servants need now to carry through the transition, negotiating the best exit deal possible and in a timeframe that suits the UK's best interests. They should not allow us to be bullied to the door, like drunks in a pub. We're not drunks, we just said we didn't like their beer too much and plan to drink in another pub ....when the refurb has finished.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Phil on June 27, 2016, 10:29:23 AM
 :460:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 27, 2016, 10:53:24 AM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
The elected Government of the UK asked he people if they wanted to remain part of the EU, or Leave the EU. The Electorate of the UK gave their answer and now the UK Government are mandated to carry that answer through.  They did not ask "How?" it should be done. They did not ask "When?" it should be done by. They did not ask "Who?" should do it....All of those are the responsibility of the UK Government (irrespective of whoever that is, or should become). That's what they're elected for. Remember, the UK was not "expelled" from the EU. We made a sovereign decision. Our government and civil servants need now to carry through the transition, negotiating the best exit deal possible and in a timeframe that suits the UK's best interests. They should not allow us to be bullied to the door, like drunks in a pub. We're not drunks, we just said we didn't like their beer too much and plan to drink in another pub ....when the refurb has finished.


I suppose it could be said that the sooner this is all done the better. As long as there is uncertainty and faffing about with regard to the process, then there will also be faffing around and uncertainty in the markets and the exchange rates and all the other issues that can have negative outcomes on all of our daily lives including those in the UK.

"We made a sovereign decision" perhaps it could be said  "We made a sovereign, but ill informed decision"

 "we just said we didn't like their beer too much "  What the feck is wrong with Guinness ?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 27, 2016, 10:56:59 AM
Interestingly enough I see that some folks are still adding to the poll at the start of this thread. The "remain" percentage seems to have crept up from 26% to 29% since the referendum.  Perhaps the G*bs***e has become a member on here and is letting his conscience get the better of him in the hope that the whole thing can be reversed if he votes often enough  :001:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 27, 2016, 10:58:52 AM
*Originally Posted by Griff [+]
"we just said we didn't like their beer too much "  What the feck is wrong with Guinness ?


Hmmmm  :084: ....you have a point there. We still like Guinness  :028:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 27, 2016, 11:23:54 AM
*Originally Posted by Griff [+]
Interestingly enough I see that some folks are still adding to the poll at the start of this thread. The "remain" percentage seems to have crept up from 26% to 29% since the referendum.  Perhaps the G*bs***e has become a member on here and is letting his conscience get the better of him in the hope that the whole thing can be reversed if he votes often enough  :001:

That's interesting, I hadn't noticed that.

As we watch the value of our pensions crash, as the pound sinks, race hate grows (that one's hit the press today) and people start to lose their jobs I dare say that that figure may rise still.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Ogri (Trainee) on June 27, 2016, 11:25:48 AM
It would appear that none of the Brexit promises are substantive..... Who would have thought? ......  Doh

What we are seeing now is that no one politically wants the poison chalice?! Not even farage who is backtracking quicker than the rest of them!

It's almost as though they didn't have a plan? Doh ......  As for Cameron resigning you didn't need a crystal ball for that one, parliamentary politics relies on the backing of your party so it would be pointless planning a fail strategy because you would never get to enact it.

Don't blame the government for what's happening whoever voted leave need to man up and take responsibility for what's happening.

I see Barclays and RBS have had their shares suspended from trading ......  Going well so far?



Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 27, 2016, 11:42:13 AM
I'm not a natural conservative voter, but the PM has handled this in the best way possible; there's no way he's going to sign our economic death warrant himself.

I can only hope that there will something that can still be done when those who voted "out" as a protest vote and those who didn't understand the consequences of what they were voting for, see the destruction unfold over the next few months and Farage and Johnson hide from the backlash.

Heck, even Daily Mail readers will start to understand when they see the value of their houses start to fall  :005:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on June 27, 2016, 12:33:30 PM
*Originally Posted by redmerle [+]
I'm not a natural conservative voter, but the PM has handled this in the best way possible; there's no way he's going to sign our economic death warrant himself.

I can only hope that there will something that can still be done when those who voted "out" as a protest vote and those who didn't understand the consequences of what they were voting for, see the destruction unfold over the next few months and Farage and Johnson hide from the backlash.

Heck, even Daily Mail readers will start to understand when they see the value of their houses start to fall  :005:

Yes people have been really caught out. Even the leave leaders are floundering.

My own area of the country, South Tyneside, has been fervently leave, and still appears to be. The irony is that we are a hugely net beneficiary of Euro funding (every large project is, at least in part, receiving Euro funding). If the funds are to be replaced domestically then that puts the kibosh on extra funds for the NHS, as promised by Farage etc.

Is it possible we'll come to accept things and that things will be back to some sort of normality one day? Of course. Much the same way that someone takes away your Tex, and says you have to ride CB500s from now on. Yes, you'll get used to it and mainly it does the same things. But actually it'll never be the same.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: owl on June 27, 2016, 03:47:17 PM
Well, I for one voted to leave and I do not regret that decision for a nano second.

It's only been a few days for goodness sake - the world hasn't ended, money speculators and share dealers will make their money regardless of a rising or falling pound/share prices - hysteria will calm down once the dust settles and people who voted to stay should man up, accept that their opinions were outvoted and just get on with life.

In the coming months and a few short years we will no doubt get kicked in the teeth by our old 'friends' the French and Germans, but I really do hope we're not going to hear the same old same old trotted out by bad losers over and over again - it's getting tiresome already.



Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 27, 2016, 04:02:10 PM
*Originally Posted by owl [+]
Well, I for one voted to leave and I do not regret that decision for a nano second.

It's only been a few days for goodness sake - the world hasn't ended, money speculators and share dealers will make their money regardless of a rising or falling pound/share prices - hysteria will calm down once the dust settles and people who voted to stay should man up, accept that their opinions were outvoted and just get on with life.

In the coming months and a few short years we will no doubt get kicked in the teeth by our old 'friends' the French and Germans, but I really do hope we're not going to hear the same old same old trotted out by bad losers over and over again - it's getting tiresome already.

Whether you are finding it "tiresome" of not is not something that should figure in deciding such a fundamental change to our Country's future.

How's this for not being "the same old, same old": The outcome of the referendum is not binding on Parliament and it can still be voted down and rejected there:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email (https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/jun/27/stop-brexit-mp-vote-referendum-members-parliament-act-europe?campaign_id=A100&campaign_type=Email)

Where the future of my family and my Country is concerned, I shall keep fighting!



Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: owl on June 27, 2016, 04:20:11 PM
The decision has been taken. You lost. Get over it.

It's not best out of three for Chrisake.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 27, 2016, 04:34:03 PM
I take it that following my link, reading and comprehending it proved a challenge too far then?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 27, 2016, 05:04:47 PM
Do you seriously believe that the elected representatives of all those constituencies that voted leave, will renege on their stated will ? Wakey wakey  :138:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 27, 2016, 05:06:04 PM
*Originally Posted by redmerle [+]
Where the future of my family and my Country is concerned, I shall keep fighting!

Then you'll get used to being ignored.....just like the MAJORITY in this country have been for years.

BTW...you'll have to define "my Country" for me, because you seem to have missed the major point of this referendum, in that it is the erosion of the very principal of "my Country" that was at stake.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: redmerle on June 27, 2016, 05:16:43 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
Do you seriously believe that the elected representatives of all those constituencies that voted leave, will renege on their stated will ? Wakey wakey  :138:

We only know how the mob voted, we don't know about our elected representatives voted.

With a few honourable exceptions, I get the impression that there's little proper debate to be had here and plenty of ill informed cobblers.

I shan't waste my breath.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on June 27, 2016, 05:53:32 PM
*Originally Posted by owl [+]
Well, I for one voted to leave and I do not regret that decision for a nano second.

It's only been a few days for goodness sake - the world hasn't ended, money speculators and share dealers will make their money regardless of a rising or falling pound/share prices - hysteria will calm down once the dust settles and people who voted to stay should man up, accept that their opinions were outvoted and just get on with life.

In the coming months and a few short years we will no doubt get kicked in the teeth by our old 'friends' the French and Germans, but I really do hope we're not going to hear the same old same old trotted out by bad losers over and over again - it's getting tiresome already.

 :0461:

Anyone who worries about their Stocks and Share fluctuation should not invest in the Stock Market.  Almost every penny I have is invested in the stock market and I can almost guarantee that my incolm will not very significantly over the next 12 months.  The capital value will decrease, but I don't care, it will go up.  I've invested through many global problems, 911, the tech bubble, various Black days and it always bounces back. 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on June 27, 2016, 05:56:28 PM
*Originally Posted by owl [+]
The decision has been taken. You lost. Get over it.

It's not best out of three for Chrisake.

I agree that we have to honour the result, and clearly can't keep re-running until it changes.

However, there's no doubt that many have got a shock at the fallout. I agree that we are probably still in knee jerk territory and must wait to see what can be agreed and if things look as though they will improve as we were promised. The trouble is that if it isn't just knee jerk, and especially if pro-leave is unable to deliver on its promises, then the government will probably have to go back and have another referendum. I'd say general election, but that will likely happen fairly soon anyway, and couldn't be run on a single issue anyhow.

But I think for now we all have to accept the status quo, that we've voted to come out and get on with it.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: owl on June 27, 2016, 06:16:47 PM
*Originally Posted by redmerle [+]
I take it that following my link, reading and comprehending it proved a challenge too far then?

I didn't bother reading it as I believe in democracy, not on ways to circumvent it.

Get over it, for the sake of your own health.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: owl on June 27, 2016, 06:24:13 PM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
I agree that we have to honour the result, and clearly can't keep re-running until it changes.

However, there's no doubt that many have got a shock at the fallout. I agree that we are probably still in knee jerk territory and must wait to see what can be agreed and if things look as though they will improve as we were promised. The trouble is that if it isn't just knee jerk, and especially if pro-leave is unable to deliver on its promises, then the government will probably have to go back and have another referendum. I'd say general election, but that will likely happen fairly soon anyway, and couldn't be run on a single issue anyhow.

But I think for now we all have to accept the status quo, that we've voted to come out and get on with it.


That's a very balanced view, Geoff.

I look on our country's situation now as I do on investments - you cannot expect to see a return in a few short years - the exit from the EU should be viewed as a long term prospect.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 27, 2016, 07:54:19 PM
*Originally Posted by redmerle [+]
We only know how the mob voted, we don't know about our elected representatives voted.

With a few honourable exceptions, I get the impression that there's little proper debate to be had here and plenty of ill informed cobblers.

I shan't waste my breath.

Maybe I left an apostrophe off "Constituencies"? I don't know. I never went to university, so I'm clearly too thick to know anything. But what I meant was the constituents themselves have given the mandate and the MPs will follow that mandate...... or cease to be MPs.

Anyway......The "Mob" !!!  :033: ......What's it like up there, looking down on all the rest of us ?? 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Batzen on June 27, 2016, 10:22:15 PM
Ahm, 3 lions already started Brexit decission :164: :008: :430:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on June 28, 2016, 07:43:28 AM
*Originally Posted by Batzen [+]
Ahm, 3 lions already started Brexit decission :164: :008: :430:

They were shocking, weren't they  :034:


Now then....plan B .........COME ON WALES  :152: :152: :082:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: gauldie on June 28, 2016, 07:52:12 AM
England out of Europe twice in 5 days.

Has to be some kind of record!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on June 28, 2016, 10:33:50 AM

Anyone who worries about their Stocks and Share fluctuation should not invest in the Stock Market.

Sadly this is not just about investment in the stock market for some of us. Right now, and as a direct result of Brexit the arse has also fallen out of my pension here in Ireland. I am aware that is of no concern to UK folks, but Ireland is a close trading partner of the UK and as such our stock market (in which our pension funds are partly invested) has also dropped dramatically.

We all did not need this debacle following close on recovery from one of the biggest recessions the world has ever seen.  The irony is that many of the over 50's who voted for so called "return of sovereignty" are responsible for the fall in their own investments and pensions. How they must be regretting that right now.  What has changed apart from recession ? Nothing. Y'all still have the same regulations governing daily living, most of which made sense anyway. Your politicians are in a total mess. Immigration will still happen as all countries in Europe have to take their share of immigrants, including GB who once governed many of the areas from whence the immigrants come, etc etc. Britain always had its unique identity one way or another, just like the French and the Germans. The only thing that has changed by the UK dropping out of Europe is that we are once again in a recession. That is what has been achieved. 


 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: owl on June 28, 2016, 11:09:19 AM
The FTSE 100 and 250 already showing massive gains this morning. The sterling has stabilised too. The markets go down, the markets go up. Far too early to be talking about recessions.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NiK on July 01, 2016, 08:56:24 AM
Many (if not most) voted "leave" on one or two fears (immigration and so-called loss of sovereignty).
Now many (if not most) analyse the consequences almost only on a financial level.
All this, I believe only shows one winner: simplism.

As always, I have an Albert Einstein quote for this global debacle of human brain: "Make things as simple as possible, but not simpler".

Alas, we all tend to listen to the ones who use simplism as a marketing device. Just because it is, as Yoda said "Quicker, easier, more seductive" ;-)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Ogri (Trainee) on July 01, 2016, 09:53:12 AM
Agreed.....    I have talked to many people as you would expect and repeatedly I hear I voted on the two issues you mention.  But even when asked about these, they know nothing about these two simple issues, they did no research of their own and just repeated what they have been told. It would appear that we have got lazy and take our hard fought democracy for granted!

We are suffering from years of this though, for years the turnout and interest in our own general elections has been pitiful.

Sadly it's never been truer than now as our politicians implode..... But

"Every nation gets the government it deserves"
Joseph-Marie de Maistre
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NiK on July 01, 2016, 12:14:36 PM
*Originally Posted by Ogri (Trainee) [+]
"Every nation gets the government it deserves"
Joseph-Marie de Maistre
Soooo absolutely right!
All that we all really want is someone going our personal way of fears and hopes and constantly repeating "It'll be alright, Santa will come around and solve everything for you".

So we got what we wanted, even if we didn't want what we got.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 16, 2016, 05:51:30 PM
Britain has a bright future ahead.  Early signs are positive but only time will tell.

Remain campaigners need to get over themselves and move on with positivity or they will talk the country into recession.

It's done - we voted out.

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on July 16, 2016, 05:53:58 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
Britain has a bright future ahead.  Early signs are positive but only time will tell.

Remain campaigners need to get over themselves and move on with positivity or they will talk the country into recession.

It's done - we voted out.

 :0461: :0461: :0461: Bang on. Let's get on with life and show the world we are GREAT Britain
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on July 16, 2016, 06:16:18 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
Britain has a bright future ahead.  Early signs are positive but only time will tell.

Remain campaigners need to get over themselves and move on with positivity or they will talk the country into recession.

It's done - we voted out.

I'd have to disagree that early signs are promising. Apart from the FTSE everything is pretty depressed by the situation. Suddenly even the leave campaigners are struggling to remember why we decided to leave, the reality of the sheer scale of leaving is becoming apparent, and even senior politicians are suggesting that a second referendum on the terms of exit may be needed.

I'm not sure it really will happen though, if it is going to, I'd like to see it speeded through by sensible negotiations on both side.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 16, 2016, 08:18:08 PM
That's a remain campaign perspective.

What I see is a fresh government with a positive outlook, several countries already saying they would like to negotiate trade deals with us, house prices coming down, a strong  FT Index and a Government commitment to control immigration.  Yes the £ is week but I believe it will strengthen over the coming months.  Though a week £ helps our export market enormously.  It just means your holiday may cost more - big deal.

Campaigners clinging to the hope of a second referendum are pissing in the wind.  The U.K. Is a democracy and we are Out of the EU and that's it.  Just because a small number wished they had voted in rather than out will change nothing, 1,000 barristers signing a petition to stay will change nothing, 3,000,000 Londoners signing a petition to stay will change nothing, Scotland, NI and Gibraltar voting to stay will change nothing.

So it's time to move on and embrace a brighter future because the decision has been made.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Batzen on July 16, 2016, 10:29:11 PM
Not really, GB is still in the EU and it will take a "little" bit more time for a leave, think 2-3 years or more.
And what really will happen after the the Brexit is reality, we will see in 5 or 6 years, maybe later, but not in a few months
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on July 17, 2016, 09:04:56 AM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
................... the reality of the sheer scale of JUST HOW DEEPLY OUR POLITICIANS HAVE STEALTHILY ENTRENCHED US AND JUST HOW MUCH SOVEREIGNTY THEY GAVE AWAY, AGAINST THE WILL OF THE UK MAJORITY, is becoming apparent.......................


Fixed it for you ..... :016:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 17, 2016, 09:09:29 AM
*Originally Posted by Batzen [+]
Not really, GB is still in the EU and it will take a "little" bit more time for a leave, think 2-3 years or more.
And what really will happen after the the Brexit is reality, we will see in 5 or 6 years, maybe later, but not in a few months

It's certainly a long term venture.  However, there has already been a government statement that we will have left the EU before December 2018.  So Article 50 will be triggered by the end of this year.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: nerolab on July 18, 2016, 05:24:08 PM
Just dipping in again... Interestingly, the poll seems to reflect the overall consensus was that it was the aherm... more senior citizens that wanted out.  :164:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 18, 2016, 08:03:08 PM
*Originally Posted by nerolab [+]
Just dipping in again... Interestingly, the poll seems to reflect the overall consensus was that it was the aherm... more senior citizens that wanted out.  :164:

True - when we voted in it was for a Trade Agrement not a political union.  So us oldies needed to right the wrong.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on July 18, 2016, 08:19:23 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
True - when we voted in it was for a Trade Agrement not a political union.  So us oldies needed to right the wrong.

 :460: :0461:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on July 18, 2016, 08:25:57 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
True - when we voted in it was for a Trade Agrement not a political union.  So us oldies needed to right the wrong.

Thanks guys! My business has just been informed of a 10% increase in import costs due to the weak pound. Excellent work!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on July 18, 2016, 08:29:57 PM
Maybe, but exporters are winning. Exports help the balance of payments and that's a benefit to the country as a whole. It'll all balance out eventually
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on July 18, 2016, 09:52:20 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
Thanks guys! My business has just been informed of a 10% increase in import costs due to the weak pound. Excellent work!

So who did you blame in 2013 then ??   :027:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NiK on July 19, 2016, 09:08:39 AM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
Thanks guys! My business has just been informed of a 10% increase in import costs due to the weak pound. Excellent work!
Enjoy while it lasts!

I sincerely hope for your country that having left the EU won't push too many English companies to leave for cheaper skies. This might (this is not a confirmed information) be the case with ARM, one of the UK's finest technological achievement, which is about to be acquired by Japanese SoftBank.

I wish you all that the experts were wrong when they estimated the economical consequences.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 19, 2016, 09:33:29 AM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
So who did you blame in 2013 then ??   :027:

 :745: :745: :745:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on July 19, 2016, 09:37:57 AM
 
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
So who did you blame in 2013 then ??   :027:

Jonny

You are going to use up all those shrugging emoji's.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on July 19, 2016, 12:40:41 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]

Jonny

You are going to use up all those shrugging emoji's.

And your answer to the question is ....... ??  :027:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on July 19, 2016, 01:07:11 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
So who did you blame in 2013 then ??   :027:

Sometimes s#*t happens, but I would'nt vote for it to happen!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on July 19, 2016, 05:40:57 PM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
Sometimes s#*t happens, but I would'nt vote for it to happen!

 :047:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on July 20, 2016, 08:03:37 AM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
Sometimes s#*t happens, but I would'nt vote for it to happen!

I think you'll find we voted to get out of the bigger (and growing) sea of s#*t 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on July 20, 2016, 09:05:57 AM
There's little point in going back over the arguments for and against now, but the practicalities are a different matter.

For all Theresa May has said 'Brexit means Brexit' she could hardly say anything different, and she now has to face the reality. We are already seeing the problem. We don't want to trigger Article 50 until we know what terms can be agreed, but Europe seems reluctant to talk before it's triggered. The problem is that if Europe isn't prepared to give us reasonable terms then we can't risk triggering Article 50, no matter that politicians are now saying it will happen early 2017. If it is delayed much longer than that then the political climate will almost certainly involve another general election, at which time Brexit will become less certain.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: owl on July 20, 2016, 09:20:08 AM
Can you imagine the situation where delay after delay/general election meant that the UK tried to renege on its promise to leave the EU?

There would be an unimaginable backlash not only with the UK electorate but the EU as well. Our nation would be a laughing stock.

I do not believe that any politician or political party would dare to risk that.

The decision to implement article 50 is ours to take. Our timing, not the EU's, whatever they might like. It would not be sensible to rush into it, and the PM's meeting today with Angela Merkel is one step towards coming to some sort of understandin. It is no coincidence that May's first meeting in Europe is with the most powerful leader rather than the EU President. 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 20, 2016, 09:43:23 AM
You're in denial Travelman.

Once the UK has worked out what we want from Brixit the Government will trigger Artical 50 and we will be out.  The rest of Europe needs our trade more than we need theirs. If they do not play ball we will trade elsewhere and tax the hell out of their car imports. I'll stick with my British Triumph and though owned by Tata my Landrover that employers thousands of British workers.

What we need now is a Buy British campaign, something we were not allowed to do under EU rules.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on July 20, 2016, 10:11:24 AM


What we need now is a Buy British campaign, something we were not allowed to do under EU rules.
[/quote]

That'll come in handy when you want a banana!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 20, 2016, 10:24:44 AM
Why am I not surprised a Scotsman does not want a buy British campaign.

BTW most of our bananas come from South America.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on July 20, 2016, 10:42:31 AM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
Why am I not surprised a Scotsman does not want a buy British campaign.

BTW most of our bananas come from South America.

Carefull now! You're little englander mask just slipped a bit!

My comment was to highlight that buying british is not a valid argument, Joe public is only interested in cheap, they dont generaly care were it comes from or they would already have informed themselves and bought it british! You will also find that your Triumph/Land Rover is mainly assembled in Britain, not built, and therefor depends heavily on imported parts!

Why you have to resort to the Scotsman card, I don't quite get?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 20, 2016, 11:00:41 AM
I disagree - many people would prefer to buy British, it's not always a cost decision.

Nor is it obvious which products are British and which are not.  I would like to see a Union Jack on every British product.   The definition of British being those products the employ British people.  We can argue about the percentage of British employed later.

If you put two carrots on the table and the British one is 1p more expensive than the French one.  Which would you buy?

Or indeed two Kilts.  One made in Scotland costing £35 or one made in Italy costing £30.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: BlahBlah on July 20, 2016, 11:15:07 AM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
  Which would you buy?

Or indeed two Kilts.  One made in Scotland costing £35 or one made in Italy costing £30.

I would still buy the jeans at £80 quid. You haven't seen my legs!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 20, 2016, 11:17:21 AM
 :745:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on July 20, 2016, 11:55:15 AM
*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
I would still buy the jeans at £80 quid.

So that destroys your "Joe public is only interested in cheap" argument then? You can buy jeans for £15 at Tesco. I guess the £80 ones you buy are a superior quality ?  (sooo tempted to put a shruggy in here  :007: )

*Originally Posted by BlahBlah [+]
You haven't seen my legs!

Not seen my own legs for a while...........Reminder to self: Must diet in 2017  :034:
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NiK on July 20, 2016, 12:08:56 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
If you put two carrots on the table and the British one is 1p more expensive than the French one.  Which would you buy?
The French one of course!

(Rooster you just made 2 diplomatic incidents in one thread)
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on July 20, 2016, 12:20:50 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
You're in denial Travelman.

Once the UK has worked out what we want from Brixit the Government will trigger Artical 50 and we will be out.

This comment sums up my point. We can work out what we want but that doesn't mean it's what we get. We can't just leave the EU, we have to negotiate a deal. Until we have a very good idea we will get favourable terms we can't trigger Article 50.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 20, 2016, 12:50:54 PM
No -  once we have worked out what we WANT, we will trigger Artical 50.  NOT when we know what we will GET.

We won't know what we will get until negotiations start. Negotiations start after Artical 50 has been triggered not before. That has been made quite clear by the EU.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Travelman on July 20, 2016, 01:10:45 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
No -  once we have worked out what we WANT, we will trigger Artical 50.  NOT when we know what we will GET.

We won't know what we will get until negotiations start. Negotiations start after Artical 50 has been triggered not before. That has been made quite clear by the EU.

Partly depends on whether Article 50 has to go to Parliament and that's something that is before the courts now. It is unlikely that MPs will vote to trigger if at least the bare bones of a deal are not known.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on July 20, 2016, 01:14:48 PM
Meanwhile......the EU isn't exactly sure who will be negotiating on their behalf  :006: Will it be the EU Commission?....or the EU Council? 
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 20, 2016, 02:18:33 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
The French one of course!

(Rooster you just made 2 diplomatic incidents in one thread)

As indeed you should.  I remember well the burning of British lorries transporting sheep into France to protect the interests of French sheep farmers.  You should have a buy French campaign.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Ogri (Trainee) on July 20, 2016, 06:51:24 PM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
I disagree - many people would prefer to buy British, it's not always a cost decision.

Nor is it obvious which products are British and which are not.  I would like to see a Union Jack on every British product.   The definition of British being those products the employ British people.  We can argue about the percentage of British employed later.

If you put two carrots on the table and the British one is 1p more expensive than the French one.  Which would you buy?

Interesting choice food and sadly a mute point, we don't have the capability/land area to produce enough food for our own population ..... So we will have to import so French carrots or nothing I am afraid.  We also have very little manufacturing so we will have to import alot of that as well.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Rooster on July 20, 2016, 07:01:59 PM
*Originally Posted by Ogri (Trainee) [+]
Interesting choice food and sadly a mute point, we don't have the capability/land area to produce enough food for our own population ..... So we will have to import so French carrots or nothing I am afraid.  We also have very little manufacturing so we will have to import alot of that as well.

Not the point.  Given the choice - buy British.

And as it happens the UK is self sustainable in respect of carrots.  :004:

We Brits eat our way through £290 million or 700,000 tonnes worth of carrots every year – that’s approximately 100 carrots per person.

Each year 22 billion seeds are planted in Britain, producing around 100 carrots per year for every member of the population.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NiK on July 21, 2016, 08:33:57 AM
*Originally Posted by Rooster [+]
As indeed you should.  I remember well the burning of British lorries transporting sheep into France to protect the interests of French sheep farmers.  You should have a buy French campaign.
I support buying LOCAL, not national. And mostly for the sake of our planet.
Whenever you advocate national anything, you pave the road toward nationalism. And human history is full of the wonderful side effects of nationalism (just like those absurd cowards who set other countries' lorries on fire).

Avoiding nationalism also have a bonus effect: it prevents you from jumping down anyone's throat just because they are "foreigners".
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on March 29, 2017, 06:40:22 PM
Oops !  Poor Winston. Today his dream has been shattered...........

Best of luck to y'all......

I am sure it will all work out though. Theresa seems to know what She is doing.......   
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Griff on January 13, 2018, 10:21:26 PM
Wow, almost a year has passed and not a dickybird on here.

Y'all still super happy to be going (when ever )   :007:

Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: grumps on January 14, 2018, 09:46:37 AM
*Originally Posted by Griff [+]

Y'all still super happy to be going (when ever )   :007:

Yep, even more now that we have seen the attitude of the unelected, unaccountable likes of Barnier and Juncker. Boy have we pi**ed on their chips by wanting leave their club, not to mention the effect of the loss of our nett payments. Bet they have to think about reducing the size of their budget and slim down their extrvagant spending now!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: adrianb1066 on January 14, 2018, 12:28:25 PM
Out Out
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Tuggy on January 14, 2018, 07:34:56 PM
This has nothing to do with the rhetoric banded about by any side.

This whole fiasco has been brought on by the EU bringing in new Tax avoidance rules that those with mega cash are trying to avoid.

Unfortunately for them recent EU focus is now on those tax havens that allow Millions to be salted away before any negotiations about the City/Service sector can be allowed to co-operate with the EU after Brexit.

If the Mega wealthy decide they might as well stay in the EU, then that’s what’s going to happen.
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: Pailton on March 28, 2019, 02:06:28 AM
Well after the fiasco of the last couple of weeks regarding the MP's performance, I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't leave (Even though it's what the public voted for.)  :005:

Democracy in the U.K is being challenged, the voting system we have is the only real way the general public can have a say in how the country is run, so what happens when the Politicians ignore the population because they disagree?..... I think we may be about to find out.   :027:     
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: TotnesSteve on March 28, 2019, 07:48:17 AM
*Originally Posted by Griff [+]
Wow, almost a year has passed and not a dickybird on here.

Y'all still super happy to be going (when ever )   :007:


Probably a good thing that this forum is (nearly) Brexit-free. It's a hugely divisive topic. A bit like Trump in the US.

People I know in a club I am Secretary of take the opposite position to me and I find it hard to remain friends with them.

Our brand of democracy simply isn't up to the job.

Yesterday, MPs voted against all seven options the were tabled as "indicative votes" to see if the options could be narrowed down. This was 1000 days after the House of Commons nailed our feet to the floor with the Withdrawal Agreement, and less than 20 days before we leave automatically.

This is a total catastrof*ck.

I have stopped reading the news; it's not good for my mental health. Luckily I have the TEx for therapy.  I took her for a blast around the edge of Dartmoor yesterday in the bright spring sunshine, which cheered me up no end.

Courages, mes braves!
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: TotnesSteve on March 28, 2019, 07:57:20 AM
*Originally Posted by Travelman [+]
This comment sums up my point. We can work out what we want but that doesn't mean it's what we get. We can't just leave the EU, we have to negotiate a deal. Until we have a very good idea we will get favourable terms we can't trigger Article 50.

This from 2016 is prescient, don't you think?
Title: Re: Are you In or Out
Post by: NiK on March 28, 2019, 08:42:18 AM
*Originally Posted by TotnesSteve [+]
It's a hugely divisive topic. A bit like Trump in the US.
Your analogy is sound. Our worlds are becoming more and more divided.
The more we come to realize how complex the world really is (as opposed to the "good" old days of cold war, when the bad guys were officially pointed at), the more we regress to a state of simplistic opinions. This naturally leads to simple - yet hard - oppositions.
This can be seen on almost every topic, even on this very forum (Trump decisions, Brexit, deadly weapons available to the general public...).
I think it will be harder and harder to collectively choose a brighter route for that boat we're all on...

On this specific topic, I have friends in the UK. They will remain my friends, even after the no deal exit (which will cost a lot to everyone in the UK and in the EU). It just will be more complicated to visit each others. Yeah, more complications, just what we all needed!