Tiger Explorer

Main Tiger Explorer Discussion Boards => Lighting, Electrical, and Wiring => Topic started by: NiK on September 20, 2018, 08:31:16 PM

Title: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on September 20, 2018, 08:31:16 PM
Soooo here I am, unable to start the bike!
The alarm (not Triumph’s) clicks underseat when I press the fob, but indicators do not flash.
When I press the starter, nothing happens. No screen, no light, not even a single relay click underseat.
All the fuses are good (visual check only).
The keyless key’s battery looks good (tried it off near the receiver anyway).
The main battery is good (tried succesfully my Airman on the front socket).

Based on XCATel’s testimony here in May, I think I’ll have to remove all the rear parts, then wiggle wires from the alarm and hope it’ll work.
If my bike is still where I left it tomorrow morning that is...


Any other idea someone?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on September 20, 2018, 08:33:04 PM
Oh yes I forgot to mention: four days ago I successfully tapped the rear light to power up my topbox leds.
Can’t see how it would be related but...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: XCaTel on September 20, 2018, 09:57:17 PM
Best of luck Nik  :003:  I never really (for definite) found out what my starting issue was and I am hoping the return of the wet weather does not bring a repeat of my random failing to start faults. It has been faultless in that respect for the summer months. Hope you get sorted soon.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Deep6blue on September 21, 2018, 12:39:25 AM
Run/Stop switch on?
Are the battery bolts on tight?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: kenw on September 21, 2018, 12:54:32 AM
I've had one scary incident at a servo. After filling up, I couldn't start my T1200.  Wriggled all the wires around the handlebars, pushed the bike against the gears, played with clutch lever, put sidestand up and down a few times, swore a bit under my breath.  Then it started.  No idea what the problem was, or whether something I did helped.

The one other incident I've had was when at a Motel under a small phone tower.  Screen reported keyfob out of range.  I put it right next to the receiver.  Didn't help.  But the bike started OK, and once I was away from the tower it was happy.  (This is a known scenario.)

Good luck NiK.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: TEXICO on September 21, 2018, 09:00:14 AM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Soooo here I am, unable to start the bike!
The alarm (not Triumph’s) clicks underseat when I press the fob, but indicators do not flash.
When I press the starter, nothing happens. No screen, no light, not even a single relay click underseat.
All the fuses are good (visual check only).
The keyless key’s battery looks good (tried it off near the receiver anyway).
The main battery is good (tried succesfully my Airman on the front socket).

Based on XCATel’s testimony here in May, I think I’ll have to remove all the rear parts, then wiggle wires from the alarm and hope it’ll work.
If my bike is still where I left it tomorrow morning that is...


Any other idea someone?

Kill switch ?  Just saying...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on September 21, 2018, 09:01:34 AM
Yeah I know about possible interferences. But the alarm fob does send a signal to the receiver (as proven by the clicks I can hear underseat: one when deactivating, two when activating).
Thing is the indicators do not light up. I suspect an electrical problem somewhere, putting the whole system down...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on September 21, 2018, 09:25:42 AM
And of course the damn electric steering lock won’t help to put the bike on the assistance truck!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: kenw on September 21, 2018, 09:56:17 AM
*Originally Posted by TEXICO [+]
Kill switch ?  Just saying...
On the T1200 there is no separate kill switch.  The kill/off/on/start, are all one switch.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: TEXICO on September 21, 2018, 10:05:16 AM
*Originally Posted by kenw [+]
On the T1200 there is no separate kill switch.  The kill/off/on/start, are all one switch.
Ah OK I didn’t know that. It would have been a school boy error to make anyway!
I hope OP manages to sort this out
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on September 21, 2018, 04:12:10 PM
Unfortunately, I would start by reversing the brake light mod. Any error codes?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on September 21, 2018, 06:23:52 PM
No code because no screen because no startup!

Of course, first thing I did this morning was removing all of my electrical mods.
To no avail.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: TRITIGEX on September 22, 2018, 09:06:27 AM
Could be a communication issue in the CANBUS caused by your electrical mods.
Have you tried disconnecting the battery for 5 minutes after removal of the mods? This might clear the issue with the CANBUS.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on September 22, 2018, 02:49:16 PM
Yup! First thing the assistance did. To no avail.

First words from the dealer: nope. Unable to unlock the system. We might have to request a new instrument cluster from big T.

If that’s the case, I expect being bikeless for days, if not weeks...
)c8
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on September 22, 2018, 06:10:24 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Yup! First thing the assistance did. To no avail.

First words from the dealer: nope. Unable to unlock the system. We might have to request a new instrument cluster from big T.

If that’s the case, I expect being bikeless for days, if not weeks...
)c8
Did they pull the alarm?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on September 22, 2018, 06:38:36 PM
Not yet.
That’s what I suggested them to do this afternoon.
But they don’t think that could help, due to the following facts:
1 - The alarm works perfectly (it sends the signal to the indicators and is yells properly).
2 - The way they implanted it only connects to the injection and the indicators. Nothing likely to disturb the main computer.

As the bike arrived too late yesterday, they couldn’t have big T on the phone. Now they’ll wait Tuesday.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on September 22, 2018, 10:14:14 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Not yet.
That’s what I suggested them to do this afternoon.
But they don’t think that could help, due to the following facts:
1 - The alarm works perfectly (it sends the signal to the indicators and is yells properly).
2 - The way they implanted it only connects to the injection and the indicators. Nothing likely to disturb the main computer.

As the bike arrived too late yesterday, they couldn’t have big T on the phone. Now they’ll wait Tuesday.

man that sucks. I hope they can get you up and running soon.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on September 26, 2018, 07:30:48 AM
Yesterday the dealer managed to unlock the steering.
However he still can’t connect his computer.
He put the battery in charge and will try it today.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on September 28, 2018, 02:08:39 AM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Yesterday the dealer managed to unlock the steering.
However he still can’t connect his computer.
He put the battery in charge and will try it today.
:155:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on September 28, 2018, 09:53:45 AM
They’ve been talking with T for hours and still don’t have a clue!
When I suspected that manufacturers weren’t in control of their bikes anymore, I wasn’t expecting that I would be the proof )c8
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 01, 2018, 10:57:10 AM
One full week in the shop and still nothing positive as a root cause.

I politely (but firmly) asked the dealer for a loaner and he finally lent me a 2010 Honda CBF1000 (used, from his showroom).
Good bike. But it is so way out from my T12! I miss everything from my defunct €20k English bike.

If there's nothing conclusive soon enough, I might be tempted to have the sale cancelled by law.
I just can't believe a manufacturer is unable to debug one of his failed bikes. This whole story is slowly turning from scary to desperate.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on October 01, 2018, 01:10:59 PM
Damned idiots. Bad dealers and service ruin the experience for everybody. So sorry for this Nik. But you are not alone... Here's a misery loves company story from this year...

This summer my wife's second bike - BMW F800R - had a failed battery and got stranded in Rhode Island. We asked Max BMW South Windsor (Here in CT, USA) to haul it in. One week to schedule the pickup, and one week to respond, 2 weeks later they told us the battery needs replacement. A week later they told us that the immobilizer is fried and needed a replacement as well. A week of wait later they said the bike was fixed. We asked them to transfer the bike to a closer shop MAX BMW shop (Brookfield, CT) to NY. It took another two weeks to move that tiny bike ~60 miles. When they did Brookfield people told us the bike was dead and needed a battery replacement!

After I went ballistic on them, the service manager promised to take a look at it personally.

Two weeks later they told us the bike was ready. We went to pick it up - the dude said (not the service manager) somebody didn't connect a cable properly and it would come loose every time you touched the throttle. It took us a week to figure that one out... and he politely said that it wasn't their fault and they had their own backlog and had to fit our bike inside that.

Tons of apologies and whatnot - almost 2 months lost for a bike that doesn't even have TTC and ABS - it's that simple of an engine to fix...

Seriously, a good - really good - motorcycle dealer with a kick-a$$ service would make really good money in this market.... I think... but what do I know.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 01, 2018, 02:58:10 PM
Honestly, I wouldn't blame my dealer that hard. He found me a loaner, apparently on his own stock and without any help from Big T.

There aren't that many possible root causes for a bike refusing to switch on.
One week of vain investigations, even from a completely incompetent mech, becomes Triumph's fault (either they don't care, or they aren't in control of their product).
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 01, 2018, 04:21:57 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
There aren't that many possible root causes for a bike refusing to switch on.
One week of vain investigations, even from a completely incompetent mech, becomes Triumph's fault (either they don't care, or they aren't in control of their product).
Unfortunately, this could become a poster child for why the increasingly electronic governance or all motorcycle functions and the preponderance of gadgets and gizmos have made our bikes nearly impossible to diagnose and fix. As a DIY guy I cringe at the prospect of trying to fix something like this.

I recall years ago seeing the new Super Tenere on display at the motorcycle show. They had one with all the plastic off to show off the internals. The Yamaha rep explained to me that the onboard computer allowed full diagnosis in the field - right down to firing each individual spark plug - without any special tools or hookups. I found the idea quite appealing and would have bought a Super T but at that time they were available only by pre-paid order (no units in dealerships) and no test rides.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 02, 2018, 08:35:28 AM
*Originally Posted by CaptainTrips [+]
The Yamaha rep explained to me that the onboard computer allowed full diagnosis in the field - right down to firing each individual spark plug - without any special tools or hookups.
Yeah sure!
When trying to guess if my dealer really understands something to all this non mechanical troubleshooting, he told me somewhat the same: the computer can diagnose everything. Oh wait! If it's the computer that fails? Well, you can't diagnose anything anymore. At all.
Today, they're still rebooting the whole system over and over again, but I begin to doubt that they really know what they're doing.
Again, I wouldn't blame the dealer. The mechs were taught mechanics but manufacturers now build (assemble, actually) mainly new electronics. The job has changed, not the specialists. And now it looks like there is a dead spot in the maintenance line.

All this reminds me my early computer days (70s). They promised that one day we'd have computers as simple to use as phones. Now we have phones as complicated as computers. And the rest of our daily machines are all down the same slope...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Tiger Lad on October 02, 2018, 09:06:44 AM
I would find the whole situation frustrating, manufacturers have made bikes to complicated and the poor mechanics can’t keep up with the technology which is moving at warp speed. Finger crossed that you get it all sorted soon.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Hawkeye on October 02, 2018, 11:57:52 AM
You really don't have a lot of luck Nik do you, bet you thought (hoped) after your Gen-1 issues, it would all be happy riding on the Gen-3. I admire your perseverance with both your dealer and with Triumph, myself, I think by now the frustration would be starting to set in and I'd be climbing the wall and starting to get just a little upset.

Hope they get it fixed soon - and compensate you properly for all the upset and aggravation, as for sure, I'd be wanting some free servicing or suchlike going forwards to make up for this.

Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 02, 2018, 01:52:05 PM
*Originally Posted by Hawkeye [+]
I admire your perseverance with both your dealer and with Triumph
It's all because of this bloody good bike (when it moves that is)!
When I contemplate going to the dark German side, I know that it means leaving lots of good riding things behind...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: kenw on October 02, 2018, 02:04:24 PM
Just to sh#t you off a bit more, Nik, my T1200 is doing admirably, about a 1/4 into my round Oz trip.

The only two niggles so far have been a brief failure to start at a servo.  -I jiggled everything relevant I could think of, and it then started OK.
And this morning it complained of a low battery in the keyfob.  That went away, presumably after the fob had warmed up in my pocket.  I'll replace the battery when I can, and in the meantime get in the habit of turning it off when not used for a day or more.  (It should last longer than that!)

Your issue could be just one wire in one loom that is open circuit.  That would be quite hard to diagnose without replacing lots of wiring -in itself a big job.  Triumph should come to the party with a fix, even if it's a replacement bike.  Surely they know what a PR disaster a fault like this is, on their current model expensive bike ?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 02, 2018, 03:41:10 PM
*Originally Posted by kenw [+]
Your issue could be just one wire in one loom that is open circuit.
That's what I thought at first.
Except that on a normal bike, any short circuit blows the corresponding fuse (I checked all of mines for continuity) without preventing the whole bike from starting!
I seriously hope that the current electrical system is not that fragile!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Stepdoug on October 02, 2018, 03:59:04 PM
Maybe I should start shouting for that as well!!! As mines been fortnight so far
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 03, 2018, 08:42:05 AM
*Originally Posted by Stepdoug [+]
Maybe I should start shouting for that as well!!! As mines been fortnight so far
Sorry I don't get it.
Do you mean your bike's been at the dealer for two weeks now?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Stepdoug on October 03, 2018, 08:47:05 AM
Yes keep getting a battery warning light. So maybe I qualify for a discount on my next service.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 03, 2018, 09:45:27 AM
They can't solve a battery warning?!
Either their diagnostic system is ill-designed, or they all lack skills on their own product!

This is getting more and more scary...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 03, 2018, 04:50:16 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
They can't solve a battery warning?!
Either their diagnostic system is ill-designed, or they all lack skills on their own product!

This is getting more and more scary...
The all-new digital dash probably came with an all-new ECU. First-generation problems in a third-generation bike.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 03, 2018, 04:55:39 PM
Yeah Cap, I get that.
But in my IT world, you launch a service only when you have mastered the skills to maintain it!

Now, we (bikers and cagers) are about to accept what sounded out of question some years ago: we pay first, then we do the beta-testing for the manufacturers. Is there any alternative?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: isb on October 03, 2018, 05:20:15 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Yeah Cap, I get that.
But in my IT world, you launch a service only when you have mastered the skills to maintain it!

Now, we (bikers and cagers) are about to accept what sounded out of question some years ago: we pay first, then we do the beta-testing for the manufacturers. Is there any alternative?

Perhaps not in your IT world, but beta testing on customers seems pretty common to me in IT.

I hope your problems are resolved effectively and quickly.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 03, 2018, 05:47:32 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Yeah Cap, I get that.
But in my IT world, you launch a service only when you have mastered the skills to maintain it!

Now, we (bikers and cagers) are about to accept what sounded out of question some years ago: we pay first, then we do the beta-testing for the manufacturers. Is there any alternative?
Had the same problem 5 years ago when I pulled the trigger on a CMS system for our small engineering software company that was produced by another small business. They made the same arguments that we make to our clients, which was that our agility made overnight fixes possible. Sounded good in principle. Three years later with dozens of inadequacies logged with their support, we realized that they were never going to fix the bugs because they were completely focussed on adding new features to grow the business. They already had our money and told us as much.

Boutique motorcycle manufacturers like Triumph don't have the resources to do the digital stuff like the big Japanese companies do. I think that it could be good news if they had outsourced that to a larger specialist supplier. For example, BMW (and others) have active racing programs which serve to vet new digital technologies on the track before they get to consumers.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: XCaTel on October 03, 2018, 06:25:06 PM
I am in IT and these things can get to the big guys too. I work for a small company who purchase, install and configure UNIX servers and I watched a Tier 1 Global manufacturer fail to fix a clients server for 30 days straight. After nearly replacing every component, always thinking the next fix will "fix it". The next fix never did fix it and the whole thing was replaced with no successful root cause of failure analysis after the event. Anything computer related, hardware, software, firmware is never 100%, ever. It is just the degree to which failures are mitigated, balanced with the pressure to bring a product to market. If you wait to have your product 100% someone else will have already taken your spot and run away with the market.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 03, 2018, 07:34:09 PM
In our small software company, I was the lead tester (among other things). It was my job to find bugs. I used to have to put up with comments from the boss like "you're just trying to break it on purpose" (yes) and "no one would use it that way" (I did) and "we should just tell people in the documentation not to use it that way and to use it the way we intended" (no one reads the docs). My testing was only as good as my ability to think of scenarios to try.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 04, 2018, 09:16:37 AM
You're all right, of course.

Now what I cannot accept is having a bike immobilized for two weeks now without any progress from Triumph.
If I had bought a Chinese cheap crap, I could have myself to blame.
But a European €20k bike?! Seriously?!
Not even the slightest of communication if I don't harass the dealer by phone everyday?!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on October 04, 2018, 12:14:12 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
You're all right, of course.

Now what I cannot accept is having a bike immobilized for two weeks now without any progress from Triumph.
If I had bought a Chinese cheap crap, I could have myself to blame.
But a European €20k bike?! Seriously?!
Not even the slightest of communication if I don't harass the dealer by phone everyday?!

It's the dealer...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Will Morgan on October 04, 2018, 03:30:21 PM
*Originally Posted by Icy [+]
It's the dealer...

 :0461:
I think you've got the patience of a saint. By now I'd be harassing Triumph HQ in England about the bike AND the dealer!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 04, 2018, 04:05:58 PM
Yes, I think I'll try and find a contact email at HQ.

Now the dealer's about to try to transplant another instrument cluster on my bike to see if it would start!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 04, 2018, 04:11:48 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Yes, I think I'll try and find a contact email at HQ.

Now the dealer's about to try to transplant another instrument cluster on my bike to see if it would start!
That just sounds like desperation. Given your previous bike's history, I think that you would be justified in telling HQ that you are at the point that you want a full refund as the bike is not fit for purpose.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on October 04, 2018, 04:29:59 PM
*Originally Posted by CaptainTrips [+]
That just sounds like desperation. Given your previous bike's history, I think that you would be justified in telling HQ that you are at the point that you want a full refund as the bike is not fit for purpose.

 :0461: That's a lemon if I've ever seen one.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 05, 2018, 09:20:06 AM
I agree.
At the very least, I would accept a new bike as a replacement.
But I expect big T no to comply with ease!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Gazza13 on October 05, 2018, 02:34:31 PM
Very poor service all round from Triumph.

Looks like you have the old Friday afternoon just before knocking off syndrome bike.
I'm not being smart I think, as you say a 20k euro bike, this is shocking and Triumph
either fix it sharpish or, as I think you would prefer, replace it.

I have a 2013 Tex and was thinking about replacing it next year for a new Tiger 1200.
Got to admit having second thoughts now. The Tex has never let me down and is still
a fabulous all round bike.

Are these bikes just getting to sophisticated and when they break to hard to fix. :084:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 05, 2018, 04:11:56 PM
Hey Scotsman, you know where our world is going to, right?
A healthy business demands that customers buy the new iteration of your product. Marketing actually rules every market and nowadays it's 'go digital' or die.

Bike manufacturers have never been tech companies. Computer science is a job. You can't go amateur and hope for any success. So you outsource what you don't master. And voilà! You build a complex system with a SPOF (Single Point Of Failure) for which you lack skills.

I just hope that I've been extremely unlucky and wish you all T12 owners the best of luck with this otherwise excellent bike!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 05, 2018, 04:27:29 PM
Looks like the other 'low battery warning' thread may have been resolved by a loose ground strap found on the back of the engine.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 05, 2018, 05:54:30 PM
Thanks for this clue, but I don't see a loose ground causing the bike refusing to power up, while delivering normal power to the front accessory socket.
Or else the main CPU is VERY sensitive to glitches!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: XCaTel on October 05, 2018, 06:09:05 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Thanks for this clue, but I don't see a loose ground causing the bike refusing to power up, while delivering normal power to the front accessory socket.
Or else the main CPU is VERY sensitive to glitches!
I would say plenty of mechanics have been caught out by a live circuit with full voltage seemingly being ok. Often a connection is so poor it can't carry enough current to power the device, whatever it is, but the circuit shows good voltage. A broken cable buried in a loom with one copper strand intact will quite happily sit there and show 12v-14v on a circuit but be quite useless. Really hope you get to the bottom of this as sooon as.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 05, 2018, 11:16:36 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Thanks for this clue, but I don't see a loose ground causing the bike refusing to power up, while delivering normal power to the front accessory socket.
Or else the main CPU is VERY sensitive to glitches!
It's possible. If other Gen3 bikes are leaving the factory with bad ground connections, it could be the cause of your grief too.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: RaglandT on October 06, 2018, 05:21:20 AM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Thanks for this clue, but I don't see a loose ground causing the bike refusing to power up, while delivering normal power to the front accessory socket.
Or else the main CPU is VERY sensitive to glitches!

The EMU/CPU/ECM is surprisingly strange in how it handles low voltages.

I was running my Sprint 955 with a dead stator for about 2,000 miles back from South Dakota and had plenty of chance to see how decreasing voltage was handled by the CPU.  First to go was the low fuel warning light.  That would eventually trigger a MIL.  Then the tail light went, but brake lights stayed functional.  Then the dash and headlights and finally the bike.  This pattern was consistent for days on end. 

Given how much more complicated and interconnected the electronics are in newer bikes, nothing would surprise me as to what causes what when...  And the new gen has me more than a little nervous.   Personally, I am still in suspense every time I try to start the 1200 - and pleasantly delighted that it does.  I wistfully wonder if I should have stuck to my old-school carburated Trophy 900.  But then my car has the same level of technology as the Tiger and I don't give it a second thought ...

Hope you get your bike back sorted out.  One ride ought to make you forgive its little peculiarities ...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on October 06, 2018, 06:18:28 PM
*Originally Posted by RaglandT [+]
But then my car has the same level of technology as the Tiger and I don't give it a second thought ...

Correct - and that's my resignation with the fact that I am riding a computer more than a machine - same with my car; and I like it. Am I worried, yeah - but it is what it is.

I actually trust Triumph more than Audi  :008:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: kenw on October 07, 2018, 05:52:44 AM
 :0461:
As much as I sympathise with NiK on this, I think his problem is likely just a fault, not a mk3 design thing.
The area that should be improved, is Triump's response to failure of a just-purchased  bike, and their flagship current model to boot.

As I stated earlier, a simple open-circuit somewhere could be the cause.  Difficult to find.

My T1200 has now done around 11kkm, with no issues that put me off the bike, or make me regret upgrading from mk1 to mk3.
I'm pulling out of my round-Oz trip, and shipping the bike home.  No fault of the bike.  We've just decided that low 40's is too hot to ride and sight-see in, over the long bare distances we'd have ahead of us.  (Forecast 43, and likely to get hotter.)  Could be life-threatening.  -And my riding partner feels the heat more than I do.
Highest I've ridden in has been 38C, which was actually OK, if a bit uncomfortable, with a heavy jacket and thick pants on (draggin' jeans).
At that temperature, the bike heat wasn't excessive, and at no time did I think the bike was worried by heat.
Whenever I looked at the temperature bar-graph, it was in the middle (whatever temp that is).

Sorry NiK, it's not the brand & model, its just your particular machine.  Good luck with it.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 08, 2018, 09:36:20 AM
Thanks guys for your insights.

I understand that power surges are managed by fuses, but low power situations would shut the whole system down? Seriously?
I just wouldn't accept that a system can be shut down by a single degraded circuit. That's no way to ensure high availability.

Fortunately, airplanes aren't designed this way (or so I hope)!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 08, 2018, 05:28:27 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
I just wouldn't accept that a system can be shut down by a single degraded circuit.
I guess that it depends on the circuit. If the supply is good enough to get past the gatekeeper(s) but not good enough for some key function, then you would have an unexpected fault.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 09, 2018, 09:21:22 AM
I know how it can (not) work. I simply don’t agree with the idea of leaving ‘unexpected faults’ in a vehicle system.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Griff on October 09, 2018, 12:05:23 PM
So 50 days since your bike first had this issue. Is it still down or is there some progress being made ? 
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Givusaclue on October 09, 2018, 12:43:28 PM
*Originally Posted by XCaTel [+]
I would say plenty of mechanics have been caught out by a live circuit with full voltage seemingly being ok. Often a connection is so poor it can't carry enough current to power the device, whatever it is, but the circuit shows good voltage. A broken cable buried in a loom with one copper strand intact will quite happily sit there and show 12v-14v on a circuit but be quite useless. Really hope you get to the bottom of this as sooon as.

it's quite possible that a high resistance in a circuit can shut it down, see it regularly in all makes of cars, the powers & negs to the ecu need load testing, a voltmeter alone won't do that, but a dinosaur aged bulb with 2 wires will.
if they can't talk to the ecu then that's what i'd be doing first
if you've tapped into any wires for anything make sure you tell them, because the amount of people that don't tell the garage what they've done when they drop it off for a fault, that turns out to be self inflicted is amazing, they think it'll not cost them more if they tell you, but finding it takes time & time's money, so what do you think happens?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on October 09, 2018, 01:10:51 PM
So Nik. All this time, and still no word from them? Still?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 09, 2018, 04:26:40 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
I know how it can (not) work. I simply don’t agree with the idea of leaving ‘unexpected faults’ in a vehicle system.
An unexpected fault in code is a place where the programmer believes you can never get to without going through the regular checks and balances -- a condition not foreseen by the designers and programmers. The more complex the system, the more potential for these kinds of faults. Example, many airline crashes are the result of two or more unrelated failures (sometimes human and machine) happening simultaneously, when individual faults were treated as unique situations.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 10, 2018, 10:36:28 AM
Well, I started my career as a developer, then a military, then a researcher and I am now an IT Security Expert, so I have some knowledge about all of this ;-)

And I maintain that adding complexity can be achieved without creating potentially safety compromising points of failure. This IS a design flaw. And a potentially lethal one at that (what if unexpected software conditions shut the whole system down when I'm trying to avoid a crash?).
If (and only if) the flaw is definitely proven, Triumph will have no excuse for it. When you design, build and sell vehicles, you can't be negligent.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 10, 2018, 10:38:57 AM
*Originally Posted by Icy [+]
So Nik. All this time, and still no word from them? Still?
Mothership threw the problem to Triumph France, who did what they apparently do best: NOTHING.
Meanwhile, the dealer does what his electronic skills allow him to do: NOTHING.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: electroken on October 10, 2018, 11:02:10 AM
OK, I'm just a newbie here but I'm an EE and primarily a hardware guy. I'm always willing to blame the software team when things go awry. Just ask them.

Why are we so sure this is a software problem?

I know as well as anyone that troubleshooting modern vehicles is beyond all but a few motorcycle shops. What they need is an oscilloscope and someone who understands the meaning of the squiggly lines.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on October 10, 2018, 11:15:21 AM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Mothership threw the problem to Triumph France, who did what they apparently do best: NOTHING.
Meanwhile, the dealer does what his electronic skills allow him to do: NOTHING.

 :232: :232: :232: :232: :232: :232: :232: :173: :157: :157: :232: :232: :232: :232: :232: :172: :172: :172: :172: :230: :230: :230: :230: :230: :151: :151: :151:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Will Morgan on October 10, 2018, 11:17:29 AM
A long long time ago I had a new bike with catastrophic mechanical problems. The dealer couldn’t cope & actually hid it in a warehouse while they carried on with the day to day servicing of other less problematic bikes. I hope this hasn’t happened with yours!

I don’t know anything about French consumer laws, or the hierarchy of your dealership, but I eventually had to resort to legal threats on the grounds that the bike was “not fit for purpose” & I only got a result by directly confronting the CEO of the dealership rather than any of their managers.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 10, 2018, 02:14:14 PM
*Originally Posted by electroken [+]
Why are we so sure this is a software problem?
Not only I'm not that sure, but I think that nowadays, the border between hardware and software is kinda blurred to say the least.
Most complex hardware modules actually are micro code in a tangible form factor. In them programs lies the 'intelligence' (highly improper word used by everyone knowing zilch about AI) of our bikes and therefore the stupidity (and/or negligence) of their makers.

A true wizard could prove me wrong, but AFAIK most complex functions are controlled by a central unit (the ECU) and this is where I think there could be faults.

The only things I know for sure is that my bike is stranded for almost three weeks now and the dealer can't help, says that Triumph France can't help either and Triumph UK wash their hands with my case, turned it to Triumph France, who ultimately blamed the dealer this very noon by phone.

I'll ring said clueless dealer this afternoon and ask me to explain how on Earth Triumph France can say that my bike has an alarm problem while I thought this part had been ruled out two weeks ago.

Progress so far: I have the email of someone on Mothership and the phone number of someone at Triumph France.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 10, 2018, 02:28:50 PM
*Originally Posted by Will Morgan [+]
A long long time ago I had a new bike with catastrophic mechanical problems. The dealer couldn’t cope & actually hid it in a warehouse while they carried on with the day to day servicing of other less problematic bikes. I hope this hasn’t happened with yours!
I don't think so. The tech in Chief keeps telling me that he's personally working on my bike (and I won't put a webcam on him to check if he's lying).

*Originally Posted by Will Morgan [+]
I don’t know anything about French consumer laws, or the hierarchy of your dealership, but I eventually had to resort to legal threats on the grounds that the bike was “not fit for purpose” & I only got a result by directly confronting the CEO of the dealership rather than any of their managers.
There are such laws in France. The only cases I know of succesful actions were for cars and they all were after months (if not years) of expensive and tedious court procedures. The law is basically on the wealthies' side (i.e. those who have plenty of time and/or money).
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Will Morgan on October 10, 2018, 03:03:06 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
I don't think so. The tech in Chief keeps telling me that he's personally working on my bike (and I won't put a webcam on him to check if he's lying).

I hope you're right.

In my case I was told "we're working on it now" so I demanded to see evidence of this. They refused so I called them liars. They then accused me of slander, so I went to the managing director and told him I knew they were lying about "we're working on it now" because my bike wasn't even in the workshop........in fact I'd seen it upstairs in their warehouse from the top of the double decker bus I'd arrived on! There followed an "interesting" interview with the workshop manager in the MD's office! I left on a loan bike (totally unheard of in those days) with an assurance my bike would be fixed or the unemployment figures were going to rise by one!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 10, 2018, 03:47:41 PM
And I bet you made yourself a new friend on that very day!

Just rang the dealer and, you guessed it: "we're working on it".

Two weeks and a half in the workshop and what did they do until now? They removed the alarm and plugged a new dash in. "Complete system reset ongoing".
Even being conservative, I'd guess one working day and a half to do that. Not 8...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 10, 2018, 04:31:23 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
I'll ring said clueless dealer this afternoon and ask me to explain how on Earth Triumph France can say that my bike has an alarm problem while I thought this part had been ruled out two weeks ago.
Nik, did you see this:

https://www.tiger-explorer.com/index.php/topic,16659.msg198881.html#msg198881 (https://www.tiger-explorer.com/index.php/topic,16659.msg198881.html#msg198881)
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: XCaTel on October 10, 2018, 05:26:31 PM
I would be suprised if it was the alarm, my January 2018 bike came with a week 44, 2017 date stamp, well passed the affected date. It is an easy one to check though so worth doing. If there is one thing myself and Nik had in common is that we have tapped into the wiring to power something else. In my case it was to power a SW-Motech powered tank ring (Triumph dealer did it) and Nik with his extra rear lights. At the very least I would suggest anyone who wants extra power fits a fuseblock/relay combo of some sort directly to the battery rather than tapping in to any part of the CANBUS loom (I'm sure loads of power blocs are mentioned on the forum somewhere). At least that way you can totally discount your own wiring as a cause in the event of an issue.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 10, 2018, 05:26:58 PM
Yes I did.
My alarm is not Triumph’s but was installed by the dealer. Same model as my 2 previous Texes.
Actually, Triumph France’s representative didn’t understand a thing! The mech told him he was about to remove the alarm and the sales guy retained only the idea of a third party component fault!

I still had no one seeming to understand anything...

And the shop is now closed and unsurprisingly no news. Now that’s a long system reset!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 10, 2018, 05:33:00 PM
XCaTel, my tapping was to trigger the fuseblock, itself fed by a direct battery connection.
And it has worked perfectly for days. Still, I removed everything before getting the bike to the dealer.
I too thought that it could be the culprit, but frankly a small power draw from the rear lights combo shouldn’t be able to fry anything! Even a huge short circuit should blow a fuse before damaging anything electronic.
Or is there no one knowing his job at Triumph?!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Givusaclue on October 10, 2018, 09:54:14 PM
hmm.
seems quite protracted, sometimes you can't see the wood for the trees, i would first of all totally disconnect the alarm, if that doesn't help & as they're triumph dealers can't they (assuming they've got one) borrow an ecu & ignition barrel & transponder ring off another s/hand bike & just connect them to the loom, no need to fully install them, if it doesn't start then out with the oscilloscope & wiring diagram. but as they've already covered most of these points allegedly keep the no. for triumph uk handy.

i would've thought french technicians would be good at electronic glitches as all the cars they produce are riddled with them, should be second nature
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 10, 2018, 10:48:06 PM
*Originally Posted by Givusaclue [+]
i would've thought french technicians would be good at electronic glitches as all the cars they produce are riddled with them, should be second nature
:008:  Question asked and answered.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 11, 2018, 08:57:13 AM
No.
They're experts in French sh!t. This is English sh!t.
{c8
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 11, 2018, 04:36:06 PM
Sidebar question: are there any French motorcycle manufacturers?  :187:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Will Morgan on October 11, 2018, 11:05:29 PM
*Originally Posted by CaptainTrips [+]
Sidebar question: are there any French motorcycle manufacturers?  :187:

Historically there were loads of French bikes but the industry collapsed just like the British one did (1930s economic depression, WW2, lack of investment, new cheap small cars & competition from Japan etc). Now it's probably just Peugeot mass producing scooters & lightweights and a few small companies like Voxan hand-making limited numbers of bespoke bikes.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 12, 2018, 08:55:43 AM
Yes, the last real bike manufacturer here WAS Voxan.
Unfortunately, they ceased business years ago, despite their beautiful v-twin powered liter bikes.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Will Morgan on October 12, 2018, 09:45:21 AM
I didn't know Voxan had finally gone under. Last I heard they'd been "rescued" by some "entrepreneur" who was going to build the ultimate electric bike. I guess that's sunk without a trace!

What about Midual with their weird inline boxer engines?   http://www.midual.com/midual-type-1/?lang=en

Or Avinton with S&S motors?   http://avinton.fr/en

Considerably more mainstream & successful is Mash with their retro bikes powered by Chinese clones of Honda engines:  http://www.mash-motors.fr/en/



Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 12, 2018, 10:02:12 AM
Yeah the Voxan electric bike project was dropped in June 2015.
Actually, only the name was bought by Venturi, not the people. And the know-how and ideas are in people not in badges.

Avinton and Midual make not only boutique bikes, but haute couture.

Mash designs in France and builds in China. They're the closest thing that you could call a French bike 'manufacturer'. But their line of products is rather short (and the engine is not their design).
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 16, 2018, 02:31:22 PM
Latest news: based on Triumph France's Senior Tech, the dealer will order a new set of keys/receiver.

I really don't see how a failed authentication key would explain that the indicators wouldn't light up when pressing the alarm fob.
He couldn't explain it either.

I place my bet on yet another hit'n miss pathetic attempt from a so called expert.

This is their last chance. If they fail again, I'll go the legal route.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 16, 2018, 04:14:50 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
I place my bet on yet another hit'n miss pathetic attempt from a so called expert.
Well, he obviously does not know the answer and apparently, neither does head office. With no diagnosis and few clues what else is he supposed to do?  Short of handing you a new bike, their options are limited to swapping out modules.

In the 80's, a friend of mine bought a new Montecarlo SS. Just out of warranty, it died on a trip between Edmonton and Vancouver in the middle of nowhere, with no dealership anywhere near. The local garage guy told him that it could be any one of three modules in the ignition system. He didn't want to order all three because he would be stuck with the other two -- unlikely to ever need them -- and they were not returnable. So they ordered one and waited overnight for it to arrive on the bus. It did not solve the problem. They got lucky on the second try (50/50 chance). He spent three day in a small town in the middle of nowhere and missed a couple days of work.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Hawkeye on October 16, 2018, 10:56:46 PM
Think I'd start preparing the legal case. Whilst I can understand the reasoning, it seems a last gasp clutching at straws IMO
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 17, 2018, 09:21:37 AM
My thoughts exactly.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: XCaTel on October 17, 2018, 11:09:05 AM
*Originally Posted by Hawkeye [+]
Think I'd start preparing the legal case. Whilst I can understand the reasoning, it seems a last gasp clutching at straws IMO
The wonderful "Sale of Goods and Associated Guarantees Directive 99/44/EC " applies in your case.

the good bit "Apply a reduction in the price or rescind the contract (refund), if repairs or replacement are impossible or disproportionate, or cannot be completed within a reasonable time or without significant inconvenience to the consumer.. To me Triumph fail on both counts here.....but they might get you on "However, if the problem results from damage and/or misuse by the consumer, the seller may refuse to offer any of the above mentioned remedies". by virtue of your own wiring and non approved alarm.

I think in these cases it is always better to try and work with Triumph and the dealer in a positive fashion if you can and avoid all the grief of legal fees and your own time and effort. Easier said than done I know when missing riding time!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 17, 2018, 12:15:52 PM
Good advice.
Friendly first, beasty next.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 28, 2018, 05:11:06 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Good advice.
Friendly first, beasty next.
Any updates Nik?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 29, 2018, 09:49:37 AM
More than one week and the keyless assembly has still not arrived at the dealer.
I phoned Triumph France last Thursday to get information. They promised to call back and of course they did not.

I just started my SIXTH week without T12.

Today I'll call again Triumph FR and probably email mothership to show them how much they all (UK, FR, dealer) don't care about a long time customer like me.
Next step is onboarding a lawyer and getting the fight to the legal grounds.
It's a euphemism to say that Triumph failed on this sad story.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Griff on October 29, 2018, 09:55:09 AM
Forget the emails etc etc. Just pick up the phone and ring Triumph in the UK direct. They are the ones most impacted by the negativity of all of this. The dealer and Triumph Fr obviously couldn't give a damn.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 29, 2018, 03:40:56 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Today I'll call again Triumph FR and probably email mothership to show them how much they all (UK, FR, dealer) don't care about a long time customer like me.
Next step is onboarding a lawyer and getting the fight to the legal grounds.
I would tell them that you have waited long enough and that Triumph has failed to provide a vehicle that is fit for purpose and request either a new replacement unit or full refund. Hold the lawyer for their response.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 29, 2018, 04:06:37 PM
Exactly what I just did.
Awaiting their answer now (judging by their commitment unti lnow, I don't expect any miracle).
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 29, 2018, 04:40:03 PM
Instant answer from mothership: they're reaching out to Triumph France to try and see what's the problem with them.
I'm starting to think that Triumph could be a loyal brand, spoiled by a crappy French line of representatives...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Hax on October 29, 2018, 05:43:00 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Instant answer from mothership: they're reaching out to Triumph France to try and see what's the problem with them.
I'm starting to think that Triumph could be a loyal brand, spoiled by a crappy French line of representatives...

Fingers crossed!  :148:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on October 29, 2018, 06:29:35 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Instant answer from mothership: they're reaching out to Triumph France to try and see what's the problem with them.
I'm starting to think that Triumph could be a loyal brand, spoiled by a crappy French line of representatives...

 :020: praying to the spaghetti monster in the sky for some positive movement for you.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: isb on October 29, 2018, 11:23:23 PM
I really hope HQ comes through for you.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: kenw on October 30, 2018, 12:47:17 AM
*Originally Posted by Icy [+]
:020: praying to the spaghetti monster in the sky for some positive movement for you.
Hey Icy, I have the same god.  -Not that I think praying does any good.  A big bowl of pasta and meatballs would be better.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on October 30, 2018, 02:52:21 AM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Instant answer from mothership: they're reaching out to Triumph France to try and see what's the problem with them.
I'm starting to think that Triumph could be a loyal brand, spoiled by a crappy French line of representatives...
I recall (from a couple of years ago) a country whose Triumph reps were possibly worse. There was a gentleman from Greece posting here with several horror stories about the Triumph dealership there.    :003:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on October 30, 2018, 08:34:37 AM
Thanks buddies for your positive vibes!
I'll keep you updated, so we'll all know if there is a problem with Triumph or only with France {c8
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Hawkeye on October 30, 2018, 09:28:01 AM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Thanks buddies for your positive vibes!
I'll keep you updated, so we'll all know if there is a problem with Triumph or only with France {c8

Nik I don't know how you are keeping your cool and giving them so much leeway. If it was me, and they had had my bike this length of time, I'd be having some very serious discussions about replacing or fully refunding the bike, also about compensation for loss of bike, on the basis that you have given sufficient time for the fault to be reviewed and they have not been able to identify the issue or the solution. And still have no idea.

Seriously - stop being so nice. All they time they think you are ok with what they are doing and aren't taking further action, they will continue to dither and faff about. In all honesty start applying the heat, advise the dealership in writing that they have 7 calendar days to find a solution and fix your bike, else you will be"taking further actions as necessary". If nothing else you at least want compensation for this shambles! Me _ by now I'd have no confidence in the bike they supplied and would be demanding a brand new replacement at no charge.

Stop being French and be more English!!!!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 06, 2018, 04:16:23 PM
Just had the dealer: my bike now switches on and fires up properly.

Did they remove the alarm? No.
Did they replace the whole keyless system I've been waiting for for two weeks? No.

What did they do then? Firmware update.

Yes, you read correctly: it was a software fault (allegedly a conflict between the main computer and the keyless system). Apparently, I'm not the only one and Triumph was silently delaying the repair because they were working on the software (judging by the considerable time it took to get there, they all must have two left hands full of thumbs).

Now, I'll get in touch with mothership to get some useful details:
- How can I know that this won't happen again?
- What kind of compensation did they plan for my 6 and a half week without the bike?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on November 06, 2018, 04:23:03 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Just had the dealer: my bike now switches on and fires up properly.

Did they remove the alarm? No.
Did they replace the whole keyless system I've been waiting for for two weeks? No.

What did they do then? Firmware update.

Yes, you read correctly: it was a software fault (allegedly a conflict between the main computer and the keyless system). Apparently, I'm not the only one and Triumph was silently delaying the repair because they were working on the software (judging by the considerable time it took to get there, they all must have two left hands full of thumbs).

Now, I'll get in touch with mothership to get some useful details:
- How can I know that this won't happen again?
- What kind of compensation did they plan for my 6 and a half week without the bike?


 :232: :232: :232: :232: :173: :173: :173: :173: :173: :157: :157: :157: :157: :157:

holy fri#ck!ng mother of sh$#the@ds son of a bleedin' turds!!!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 06, 2018, 04:56:42 PM
Are you trying to beat the infamous Merovingian or something?
(c8

Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on November 06, 2018, 04:58:32 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Are you trying to beat the infamous Merovingian or something?
(c8

Like wiping your @ss with silk. I love it!!!  :745:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: XCaTel on November 06, 2018, 06:36:24 PM
*Originally Posted by Icy [+]
Like wiping your @ss with silk. I love it!!!  :745:
The equivalent to that for UK & Ireland bods is "Like wiping your @ss with Izal Toilet Paper". Actually on reflection I think silk would be much better!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Zeebad on November 06, 2018, 07:09:03 PM
I wonder if this will be a recall for the rest of us or just a service item. Glad your bike lives again Nik.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: kenw on November 06, 2018, 09:55:52 PM
I'm amazed at this.  I was sure it was a hardware fault.
The question looming large in my mind is... why don't all us T1200 owners suffer this?  Are there different flavours of software in the various countries?
An alternative explanation is that there was a glitch in the software loaded onto your bike, NiK. In which case, one would hope you don't have a dicey memory cell or three in your ECU.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on November 06, 2018, 10:24:47 PM
Meanwhile - this morning I accidentally shut the bike off whilst riding it. That engine cutoff button is way too easy to accidentally press especially when it's raining cats and dogs and wearing wet winter gloves...

And immediately restarted the bike while still in motion and saw a "semi active suspension error" on the screen. Pulled over, shut the bike off, restarted it and it was gone. I literally did a CTRL+ALT+DELETE to the bike. I am truly riding a computer on wheels now...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: isb on November 06, 2018, 11:25:21 PM
Glad to hear there’s progress at last. The french taunters in Monty Python and the Holy Grail clearly demonstrated the efficacy of french (accent) for insults!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Givusaclue on November 07, 2018, 10:46:16 AM
they could've defused most of this situation buy being straight with you about it imo.
then you wouldn't feel so hostile about it
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 07, 2018, 12:03:44 PM
*Originally Posted by kenw [+]
I'm amazed at this.  I was sure it was a hardware fault.
The question looming large in my mind is... why don't all us T1200 owners suffer this?  Are there different flavours of software in the various countries?
An alternative explanation is that there was a glitch in the software loaded onto your bike, NiK. In which case, one would hope you don't have a dicey memory cell or three in your ECU.
My only guess at this is that the software was developped hastily and incompetently, making it vulnerable to any kind of unexpected condition.
Bad software using variable parameters (like date/time for instance, in which case you can experience completely random failures) can fall into a deadlock, freezing the whole system for good.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 07, 2018, 12:12:05 PM
*Originally Posted by Icy [+]
Meanwhile - this morning I accidentally shut the bike off whilst riding it. That engine cutoff button is way too easy to accidentally press especially when it's raining cats and dogs and wearing wet winter gloves...
Well, not much more than Mrs NiK's '87 VFR kill switch (don't ask ;-).

*Originally Posted by Icy [+]
I am truly riding a computer on wheels now...
Absolutely.
And that's a big problem, since Triumph's computer engineers apparently aren't up to the task.
We're not talking phones or videogames here. We're talking about a vehicle, which reliability is key to the safety of its user!
In critical business (astronautics, nuclear power...) there are methods for proving algorithms and implementations. Triumph obviously doesn't use them.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 07, 2018, 12:30:43 PM
*Originally Posted by Givusaclue [+]
they could've defused most of this situation buy being straight with you about it imo.
then you wouldn't feel so hostile about it
AFAIK, Triumph didn't tell the local (i.e. French) agency about it until they issued the new software. So the dealer didn't know either.
Since all I ever got from mothership has been the standard "We value customers highly, etc." b*llsh!t, I can only speculate.
I wouldn't be surprised to learn that Triumph aftersale department is small and not really industrialized (read 'few procedures, lots of improvisation'). It certainly took a lot of time for them to realize that my problem was related to others and required a new software.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: XCaTel on November 07, 2018, 12:41:19 PM
The day before I went to pick up my new 2018 XCa the dealer called and told me it had been delayed a week. This was january 2018 and was due to issues with the key fob and Triumph (or their suppliers) were busy rewriting some code to get around the problem. Triumph proactively gave me €250 worth of accessories for the inconvinience, anything of my choice, I hadn't even asked. Gestures like that do take the edge off and costs them very little really. I can't imagine Triumph not making some gesture considering how long you have been without the bike. I'll assume all bikes will get the flash upgrade at their next service or possibly on request?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on November 07, 2018, 12:46:10 PM
I know how an incompetent dealer can screw up your life, your enjoyment or in my case, your primary transport vehicle - which does cost as much as a car. And I know Triumph has stepped in and did some nice things, like XCaTel said, some nice gestures - but they were all initiated by the dealer in my cases. I had no impact on Triumph as their primary customer. But the dealer always fought for me, and Triumph North America always reciprocated.

If there is anything we can do, sign a petition, raise a thicker, louder voice - I'm in (sign a petition, sign a nicely worded, positive letter etc)

If not, your sorry excuse of a dealer needs to step up and speak for you to Triumph HQ. I am sure it will help.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on November 07, 2018, 04:22:46 PM
*Originally Posted by kenw [+]
I'm amazed at this.  I was sure it was a hardware fault.
The question looming large in my mind is... why don't all us T1200 owners suffer this?  Are there different flavours of software in the various countries?
An alternative explanation is that there was a glitch in the software loaded onto your bike, NiK. In which case, one would hope you don't have a dicey memory cell or three in your ECU.
I suspect something similar.  Another alternative explanation is that there is a universal glitch in the software, but it is only triggered by a set of unique conditions, which may or may not be known. For example, a slightly out of spec voltage on some line or component. I would be concerned that some physical condition on your bike must have presented a unique condition that caused the software to go AWOL. And I bet that they don't really know what that physical condition on your bike is -- and that is why it took them so long to issue a 'fix'.  :155:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on November 07, 2018, 04:25:08 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
We're not talking phones or videogames here. We're talking about a vehicle, which reliability is key to the safety of its user!
And that is why the default action will be to shut down and not allow a restart.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 08, 2018, 08:58:57 AM
*Originally Posted by CaptainTrips [+]
And that is why the default action will be to shut down and not allow a restart.
Yeah, sure.
As long as it doesn't happen when you're trying to get yourself out of potentially lethal road trouble...

I'm essentially with you on the analysis. And that's why the dealer keeps the bike for some days again, checking there is nothing wrong that would have triggered the (unforgivable) bug. Nothing visible that is. And like you I suspect this could very well be something completely invisible, like a current anywhere just under/above an unexpected threshold value somewhere. If this is the case, we have a system that wasn't properly proven for every possible state and lacking monitoring functions.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Wiliam on November 09, 2018, 03:55:57 AM
I had a new 17 xrt, pretty much same thing, but of course no key fob. Turn on key and everything comes on, But hit starter button....... nothing happened. Was at dealer for more than 5 months, they replaced everything on bile, all wiring, sensors,computers, switches, never found the problem. After me calling Triumph USA in Atlanta every day the last month of not having the bike, they finally replaced my bike with a new 17 xrt, full warranty of course....
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 09, 2018, 09:19:07 AM
Today I'll try to get my bike back.
The dealer did some expert testing (i.e. he rode it) and deems it clear for take off.
Just for the sake of being unlucky to the very end, the dealer shop is currently blocked by emergency services:
https://medias.laprovence.com/BYnPNQzkNUFE1jHPJim8JVtcW2o=/850x575/top/smart/beda6dcc1d1c4300929210e24452fc88/1541486856_courslieutaudd.jpg

Sometimes probabilities are against you...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on November 09, 2018, 11:53:16 AM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
Today I'll try to get my bike back.
The dealer did some expert testing (i.e. he rode it) and deems it clear for take off.
Just for the sake of being unlucky to the very end, the dealer shop is currently blocked by emergency services:
https://medias.laprovence.com/BYnPNQzkNUFE1jHPJim8JVtcW2o=/850x575/top/smart/beda6dcc1d1c4300929210e24452fc88/1541486856_courslieutaudd.jpg

Sometimes probabilities are against you...

oh mon dieu. it's like Murphy's law:

Problems strike in groups of three,
The third problem though, is usually not the last of the first group,
It's the first of the second group...

ayayayay  :157:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 09, 2018, 02:48:00 PM
I got it back!!!!!
Negociated a couple of minutes with the police guarding the entrance of the improvised rescue HQ and they finally let me go through.

I mostly went from the dealer back to work, so essentially town trafic (complete with jams, scooters and phoning pedestrians), but wow! How did I miss my mighty Tiger!!!
Instant pleasure after almost two months on a CBF1000.

I had details from the chief mech at the dealer (an old wolfie; 20 year chief mech at Honda):
- The parts they ordered under warranty (keyless assembly) never showed. No clue as if they'll arrive. They're useless now anyway.
- The new firmware was probably already developped, Triumph UK directly sent it to my dealer and it solved the problem. They stated to the dealer that this is a "permanent fix". I don't know exactly how they can be so sure, but maybe they'll answer my own request for details...
- I'm not alone stranded. My solved case allowed an owner on the remote island of La Réunion (Indian Ocean, near Madagascar) to get his bike back. So much for communication across the Triumph dealers network!
- What the mech (and I) don't get is how does Triumph let owners ride an old buggy software, patiently waiting for stranding to happen??!! This should be a recall.
- The dealer didn't want to bash his hierarchy, but through careful questioning, I deduced that my suspicion might well be right: the weak link across Triumph from mothership to NiK is Triumph France. They don't understand a thing, they don't react unless threatened, they never ever explain, let alone apologize. If mothership answers my request, I'll be pretty straightforward in my appreciation of their French representative. I know first hand how hard it can be to find valuable local representatives across the world, but it's the whole brand reputation that is damaged in such failures!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on November 09, 2018, 03:21:44 PM
 :082:  :047: :046: :152: :062:  :028:  :821:

and all the rest of the happy emoticons for you my friend. all's well that ends well. happy Tex'ing  from now on  :305:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Tiger Lad on November 09, 2018, 03:35:13 PM
Great news :031: :046: :046: :047: :047:  hope you have good weather over the weekend to go for a blast.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 09, 2018, 04:00:10 PM
Thanks guys!
The weather here has been crap for too long now (I don't remember such a long rain row and I've been here for 25 years now), but honestly heavy rain at night (my trip home tonight) won't ruin my pleasure of riding a PROPER bike again (c8

Only thing is, as always, the dealer forgot to reactivate the CC.
Now where did I put this procedure?
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on November 09, 2018, 04:27:34 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
They stated to the dealer that this is a "permanent fix". I don't know exactly how they can be so sure, but maybe they'll answer my own request for details...
The 'permanent fix' is probably new coded that says 'if [condition] then ignore()".
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: guiri on November 09, 2018, 07:18:39 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
- The new firmware was probably already developped, Triumph UK directly sent it to my dealer and it solved the problem. They stated to the dealer that this is a "permanent fix". I don't know exactly how they can be so sure, but maybe they'll answer my own request for details...

Hi NiK

I had my own firmware adventure as an early adopter at the start of the year, when my bike was recalled by the dealer having had it home for one day! I posted about it here (https://www.tiger-explorer.com/index.php/topic,16879).

They wrote in the service handbook that they applied update SB554. Did they do anything similar in your case?

Cheers
guiri
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: eps on November 09, 2018, 10:58:40 PM
Oh I do hope its all sorted - these are fantastic underated bikes  :002:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 11, 2018, 02:18:38 PM
*Originally Posted by guiri [+]
They wrote in the service handbook that they applied update SB554. Did they do anything similar in your case?
Nope:
- They didn't have the book.
- They don't think "digital". Writing release numbers down is not their habit.

However, I'll have an invoice soon. Maybe they'll have the numbers written down on it.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 11, 2018, 02:21:16 PM
*Originally Posted by eps [+]
Oh I do hope its all sorted - these are fantastic underated bikes  :002:
All is well for now.
As expected, I enjoyed getting back home on Friday night (despite the rain and the night)!
BTW, I ran the CC reset procedure (the same as the old one, without the CC push button step, obviously.

Today, I tried to access the battery to rewire my yellow low aux lights.
The seat won't unlock!!!!
I can't stand their incompetency no more!
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on November 11, 2018, 05:37:02 PM
*Originally Posted by NiK [+]
However, I'll have an invoice soon. Maybe they'll have the numbers written down on it.
Are the Gen3 seat locks still cable actuated? If so, press down on the seat while trying the key.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: NiK on November 11, 2018, 09:30:37 PM
Oh but I knew this ordeal before (on my '12 Tex).
After a 2 hours struggle, I finally dismounted the right luggage rail, inserted a flat screwdriver through the tiny hole to the lock, and after much fiddling managed to pull the latch rearward, thus freeing the seat.

How did the cable jump out of its retaining hole? Simple: the extraordinary "chief mech" tucked all the alarm wiring against the rear light assembly, thus making the seat lock cable completely off centered! Of course, he did it on the wrong side, the one bound to pop out. I reinserted said cable and secured it.
Oh yes, talking about the alarm, its terminals were left unprotected, the rubber protection simply out of place like no one would care.
And how is the alarm module secured? Easy, a plastic latch itself secured by passing through two hole drilled in the underseat tray! Did the "expert" made the holes water tight? Of course not! What for? It's not like the tray is the part of the bike the most exposed to water spray!

Ok, this time I can't find any excuse for this (st)dealer...
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on November 11, 2018, 10:25:07 PM
I guess "fix it like you own it" is too much to ask these days.  :155:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Icy on November 11, 2018, 11:32:11 PM
Seriously. A good dealer with a competent mechanic / service department is worth its weight in gold nowadays.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Will Morgan on November 12, 2018, 10:09:29 AM
*Originally Posted by Icy [+]
Seriously. A good dealer with a competent mechanic / service department is worth its weight in gold nowadays.

 :0461:
Unfortunately these days manufacturers sometimes prefer dealers who buy in to their corporate image with approved locations, premises, decor, etc and the long standing dealers with decades of experience, excellent mechanics & great customer service lose their franchise to some new outfit who've stumped up the capital investment to match the desired corporate criteria. The worst case of this I know is Audi UK who made dealers build complete new premises to a single architectural design. In Gloucester this has rather backfired on Audi where their easily identifiable corporate designed building is now a big Honda showroom  :745: :745: :745:
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: CaptainTrips on November 12, 2018, 05:40:50 PM
*Originally Posted by Will Morgan [+]
Unfortunately these days manufacturers sometimes prefer dealers who buy in to their corporate image with approved locations, premises, decor, etc and the long standing dealers with decades of experience, excellent mechanics & great customer service lose their franchise to some new outfit who've stumped up the capital investment to match the desired corporate criteria.
Dealers are usually given no choice in these matters. Two old-time Triumph dealerships in our area folded for these reasons and then, a third that was a replacement dealer, also folded. The current dealer has gone so far as to open a second location downtown that is simply a fashion boutique for Triumph lifestyle merchandise with a couple of twins posed as props.
Title: Re: Mk3 stranded!
Post by: Zeebad on November 12, 2018, 05:49:57 PM
Yeah, my local dealer only recently got the gig after Triumph sacked off the one in Birmingham. They have it on the understanding that they will house the Triumph stuff in a separate location in the near future.