Tiger Explorer

Main Tiger Explorer Discussion Boards => General Maintenance and Servicing => Topic started by: ColinN on October 26, 2012, 11:42:41 AM

Title: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: ColinN on October 26, 2012, 11:42:41 AM
 :211:

For those of you who have been following the on-going Timing Chain rattle saga (you can listen to mine if you search my posts), this is the reply I've received from Triumph - and I quote directly from the letter:-

"We have been made aware of your concern by your dealer who has also provided a copy of the audio file. We have listened to the file and concluded that it is representative of the model. The Explorer engine employs a hydraulic chain tensioner which obviously requires oil pressure to maintain the tension on the cam chain, it is assisted by a spring but before the operating oil pressure is reached it may sound a bit noisy.

I appreciate you are concerned, but be rest assured there is nothing mechanically wrong with it's operation, and you are unlikely to experience any issues with it. Triumph employs the same component on several models, and has done for many years and ae very confident in it's operation.

I hope this response will address your concern; your motorcycle is covered by a unlimited two year warranty, and as long as the motorcycle is maintained as per the warranty terms and conditions, Triumph would be able to offer goodwill assistance outside of the two year period should it be required for a limited time."


Well I'm not sure if that puts my mind at rest or not with the "you are unlikely to experience any issues with it" bit!

I guess only time will tell, as it's still a fab bike to ride. :034:

Title: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: AusBiker on October 26, 2012, 11:56:40 AM
I think the info is good news. They would never say 'you'll never experience any issues with it forever no matter what...'
Title: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: iExplorer on October 26, 2012, 12:10:01 PM
What noise?


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Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: ColinN on October 26, 2012, 12:18:33 PM
Timing chain rattle - If you can search my old posts there's an audio file. Second thoughts, I'll attach here again so you can here it. :002:
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: Badboybez on October 26, 2012, 12:31:00 PM
Can you scan the letter and stick it up on here?

We can all print it then and stick it with our 'Service Books' for the future!  :156: :156: :156:
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: roundincircles on October 26, 2012, 12:33:07 PM
*Originally Posted by ColinN [+]
:211:

For those of you who have been following the on-going Timing Chain rattle saga (you can listen to mine if you search my posts), this is the reply I've received from Triumph - and I quote directly from the letter:-

"We have been made aware of your concern by your dealer who has also provided a copy of the audio file. We have listened to the file and concluded that it is representative of the model. The Explorer engine employs a hydraulic chain tensioner which obviously requires oil pressure to maintain the tension on the cam chain, it is assisted by a spring but before the operating oil pressure is reached it may sound a bit noisy.

I appreciate you are concerned, but be rest assured there is nothing mechanically wrong with it's operation, and you are unlikely to experience any issues with it. Triumph employs the same component on several models, and has done for many years and ae very confident in it's operation.

I hope this response will address your concern; your motorcycle is covered by a unlimited two year warranty, and as long as the motorcycle is maintained as per the warranty terms and conditions, Triumph would be able to offer goodwill assistance outside of the two year period should it be required for a limited time."


Well I'm not sure if that puts my mind at rest or not with the "you are unlikely to experience any issues with it" bit!

I guess only time will tell, as it's still a fab bike to ride. :034:

That is a very positive and supportive reply. No one can grumble at Triumphs attitude.

I expect to see many riders wearing ear defenders on their helmets.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: Tigeralorange on October 26, 2012, 06:55:38 PM
Mmmmm, representative of the model? As I say on the other thread, if it's normal why don't all Explorers do it and from day one?

And if it's that loud that as reported it's noticed by folks standing someway from the bike then it's just not acceptable.

It will be interesting to see what the reaction of Trophy owners will be if they experience the problem because I'm sure that they won't be as tolerant as some of the guys on here are being.

The Trophy and Explorer are amongst Triumphs' flagship models and for the money they cost a rattling camchain just isn't on.
Title: Touratech Mount for Garmin Zumo 660 & Madstad Screen Not plug & Play Compatible
Post by: stacka on October 27, 2012, 12:58:33 AM
Thanks heaps Colin. It is as I suspected and coming from Triumph regardless of what some others are thinking or saying, I do find it comforting and fwiw is exactly what has been mentioned by some previously in this mammoth thread. Btw, my dealer (who has done the Explorer training workshop and is a old and experienced mech') also said the same thing so for me, I'm putting this one to bed.

One last thing, I don't have the top end noise and whilst I'm not a mechanic, I have replaced several shims in my Speedmaster. O.K, It's only my hunch but I'm thinking the valve clearances of the noisier top ends whilst not sounding real flash, may just be at the looser end of their limits so eventually they'll be sorted when the shims required are replaced. I'm hoping so anyway but time will tell I guess.

For me now though, I too wear ear protection simply because I don't want to have to carry round those horns oldies put up to their ears to hear.  :745:
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: JulianinOttawa on October 27, 2012, 04:08:02 PM
Coilin, just listened to your clip.  The noise that concerns you is the rattle that lasts for about 2 secs right after starting?  Triumph's explanation seems to address this.  Your bike sounds quiet once this goes.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: ColinN on October 27, 2012, 04:28:10 PM
*Originally Posted by JulianinOttawa [+]
Coilin, just listened to your clip.  The noise that concerns you is the rattle that lasts for about 2 secs right after starting?  Triumph's explanation seems to address this.  Your bike sounds quiet once this goes.

Hi, yes it's fine after a few seconds, but what sort of concerns me (as mentioned by another on the Forum), is that it only started doing it after about 4K miles. No new bikes do it, and none of the Dealer demo bikes do it. SO, is it just going to get worse and worse with miles, I ask myself?! I still think that it's an issue that needs addressing because of this.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: roundincircles on October 27, 2012, 04:39:53 PM
*Originally Posted by ColinN [+]
Hi, yes it's fine after a few seconds, but what sort of concerns me (as mentioned by another on the Forum), is that it only started doing it after about 4K miles. No new bikes do it, and none of the Dealer demo bikes do it. SO, is it just going to get worse and worse with miles, I ask myself?! I still think that it's an issue that needs addressing because of this.

Good points.

I'm sure Triumph will address the issues as it is a negative that can be eliminated but it will take some time to re-engineer. From their perspective it is a 'nice to do' and not a 'need to do' as per their letter of explanation.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: JulianinOttawa on October 27, 2012, 06:08:04 PM
The 1050 was well known for developing a cold start rattle - much more pronounced than that of your TEX.  My 1050 did this, it started at about 20K KMs got worse for a while them levelled off.  Entirely related to temperature, around zero or below it really clanked loudly for 20S or more!  Did it without missing a beat for 48K KM.  Lot's of theories what it was - but nothing ever confirmed.  Some thought it was slightly loose headers, others cam chain slap, other top end oil starvation.

It bothered me at first, but after 1000's KM of faultless performance I accepted it as a characteristic of the motor.

It is a characteristic of hydraulic tensioners to be loose on first start.  Now you have it logged with Mr T, don't be concerned.

 :031:
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: Phileas Fogg on October 27, 2012, 06:53:38 PM
It's not just Triumphs that do it, I had a ZZR1400 and they do it as well. They have the same type of tensioner operation and the ZZR forum is full of posts about the start up noises some have even fitted different types of tensioner from other Kawasaki models whilst most just accept it as how it it is. I will leave mine as it is unless it breaks, and at the moment it sounds ok.
Title: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: Rough guide on October 27, 2012, 07:22:01 PM
Think it's time to put this to bed as only time will tell
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: sirsidneyrd on November 04, 2012, 10:57:44 AM
My blackbird was the same rattled like a goodun until the oil had benn thrown up into the tensioner then went quiet . It was only fixed when they sorted on a later model but at 4years old I had to buy and install luckily it was pretty easy
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: cdan on November 04, 2012, 01:32:57 PM
This is addressed during the ten thousand mile service.  The cam chain stretches and requires re-timing of the cams, this is supposed to take care of the noise.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: ColinN on November 04, 2012, 02:22:19 PM
Yes, I know that's hopefully the case, but as Big T have now pushed the top end overhaul due at 10K to 20K, it'll be interesting to hear just how noisy my chain has got by then, as it's considerably worse now after 6K than it was at 3K!!! So, another 14K it'll be rattling like a can full of ball bearings!!!
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: cdan on November 04, 2012, 07:45:29 PM
That is exactly  how mine sounded.  I hope it is quiet when I pick it up.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: ColinN on November 05, 2012, 05:52:58 AM
*Originally Posted by cdan [+]
That is exactly  how mine sounded.  I hope it is quiet when I pick it up.

Keep me posted on that please, it'll be a big 'tell' !
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: cymro on November 09, 2012, 12:01:51 PM
Noise/rattle on mine seems to come in mainly between 2 - 3000 revs. Dealer took a ride, says he can hear it but didn't think it was a problem. He then showed me a letter from Triumph similar to info on here.......not a prob according to that!
 
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: cdan on November 10, 2012, 11:17:28 PM
Picked mine up today, temp was 35-40 degrees F.  Engine started, no ball bearings in a tin can.  The 10K service made a BIG difference in the bike, throttle update was also good.  I hope everyone has this experience at this service. :305:
Title: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: iExplorer on November 11, 2012, 12:21:58 AM
What did they do at 10K service?


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Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: cdan on November 11, 2012, 02:16:16 PM
My dealer Frontline Eurosports, Salem, Va. checked everything on the bike adjusted everything called for in the 10k service and even changed the coolant.  The noise was stopped by adjusting the cams.  It seems that the cam chain stretches and that causes the cams to get out of adjustment.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: Phileas Fogg on November 11, 2012, 09:58:46 PM
The thing is Triumph has advised that the cams are not adjusted until 20.000 miles so if you have had yours done at 10.000 miles that is not in line with the revised service schedule, so most people wont have theirs done. It's all a bit poor really when you think about it would the big Japanese companies have this sort of uncertainty ?
I really like the Tex but Triumph still have a long way to go to catch up with the Japanese in terms of being professional.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: wolfexplorer on November 11, 2012, 10:19:00 PM
I was lead to believe it was only the valve clearances that were put off from 10k to 20k. I will find out more shortly though as my 10k is approaching fast.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: Ylbill on November 12, 2012, 03:52:17 AM
My 2013 TEX is less than 2 months old with a little over 5000 miles.  I've been reading the thread about the timing chain rattling at first start up. On my bike it does in fact go away within a few seconds so in that respect , Triumph's answer is plausible since the chain has a hydraulic tensioner.  What I'm not accepting is the the secondary noise that has been getting progressively louder at slow speeds.  Initially 1st gear in stop and go traffic at 2500 rpm engine rattles terribly and doesn't go away.  Tried in other gears , LOUD ticking/tapping sound persists and as a matter of fact gets louder.  Took bike to the shop on Thursday, test rode per my instructions and both sounds (initial rattle at start up and ticking sound at slow speeds) were immediately noticed.  This the 3rd time for the latter sound by the way. I was told initially the start up noise went away very quickly and they believe it is normal. They were concerned however at the ticking/rattle that persisted during their test ride.  After close inspection they believe it to be possibly a bad injector or set of injectors and or reed valves, I still think it has something to so with the timing chain which also means tensioner and rails.  They contacted Triumph by email and are waiting for their answer.   I'll keep everyone posted as to their findings.

Ylbill
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: ColinN on November 12, 2012, 07:15:51 AM
This is turning into an interesting topic, with some very interesting posts.

Out of the blue, I've just received a letter from Big T (allbeit after I said I was not convinced by their reply concerning my concerns over the 'rattle', and the fact that they said it was representative of the engine in the TEX), offering to replace the tensioner as a matter of good will, and that they have absolute faith in their product.

Well, that's fine, and I appreciate the good will! BUT, if it's representative AND they have absolute faith in the product, why are they offering to replace it? Is it just good will? Maybe.

I know few bikes are perfect in all respects, and I still love just about everything about the TEX - it IS a great bike, great to ride, very comfortable on long and short journeys etc. etc. but I'd really like to find out if there is an underlying issue here?
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: Olympus on November 12, 2012, 04:36:49 PM
*Originally Posted by cdan [+]
My dealer Frontline Eurosports, Salem, Va. checked everything on the bike adjusted everything called for in the 10k service and even changed the coolant.  The noise was stopped by adjusting the cams.  It seems that the cam chain stretches and that causes the cams to get out of adjustment.
Why on earth was the coolant changed ....know doubt this was at your expense??
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: james_uk9 on November 12, 2012, 05:42:19 PM
Try changing the oil, Mine rattled like a tin bin full of skeletons. I decided to do an oil change at 5200 miles and it got a whole lot quieter. I used Castrol Power 1 fully synthetic as recommended and its made a big difference to the audible ticking at 2-3k revs, a lot quieter at tickover too. I didnt bother changing the filter as I'm due the annual service on 11 December when the oil and filter will get changed again.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: Anthony1664 on November 13, 2012, 02:29:12 AM
*Originally Posted by Ylbill [+]
My 2013 TEX is less than 2 months old with a little over 5000 miles.  I've been reading the thread about the timing chain rattling at first start up. On my bike it does in fact go away within a few seconds so in that respect , Triumph's answer is plausible since the chain has a hydraulic tensioner.  What I'm not accepting is the the secondary noise that has been getting progressively louder at slow speeds.  Initially 1st gear in stop and go traffic at 2500 rpm engine rattles terribly and doesn't go away.  Tried in other gears , LOUD ticking/tapping sound persists and as a matter of fact gets louder.  Took bike to the shop on Thursday, test rode per my instructions and both sounds (initial rattle at start up and ticking sound at slow speeds) were immediately noticed.  This the 3rd time for the latter sound by the way. I was told initially the start up noise went away very quickly and they believe it is normal. They were concerned however at the ticking/rattle that persisted during their test ride.  After close inspection they believe it to be possibly a bad injector or set of injectors and or reed valves, I still think it has something to so with the timing chain which also means tensioner and rails.  They contacted Triumph by email and are waiting for their answer.   I'll keep everyone posted as to their findings.

Ylbill

The ticking is what mine does and it's defiantly getting worse i also notice it more once hot, compared it to another Tex with nearly double the miles and has no tick. Going to set up some pro re or ding kit and make some recordings as my local dealer kinda brushed it off.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: nerolab on November 13, 2012, 10:25:56 AM
*Originally Posted by Anthony1664 [+]
The ticking is what mine does and it's defiantly getting worse i also notice it more once hot, compared it to another Tex with nearly double the miles and has no tick. Going to set up some pro re or ding kit and make some recordings as my local dealer kinda brushed it off.

Noticed mine this morning even with earplugs and radio on making the woodpecker sound from the top right of the engine.....  :086:
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: cdan on November 13, 2012, 12:10:17 PM
 The coolant was changed because someone, me, had heard that Triumph coolant isn't the best and has led to some engine problems.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: Olympus on November 13, 2012, 04:47:12 PM
*Originally Posted by cdan [+]
The coolant was changed because someone, me, had heard that Triumph coolant isn't the best and has led to some engine problems.
Hi Cdan ...can you let us know what you have heard & what engine problems have resulted??
Surely during the warranty period it would be best to use the genuine Triumph HD4X Hybrid coolant... as this i know it has a corrosion inhibitor in it to stop liner erosion
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: wolfexplorer on November 13, 2012, 07:23:17 PM
I too would be interested to know what problems have been down to Triumphs coolant. 
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: cdan on November 13, 2012, 11:20:59 PM
What I have heard is that the Triumph coolant, if not changed when specified, can cause corrosion and  engine failure.  That is all I feel comfortable saying now because of the source.  I felt that I would rather have it changed and have one less thing to be concerned about.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: JulianinOttawa on November 14, 2012, 12:31:20 AM
If the cam chain stretches, which it will, that is what the tensioner is for.  So CDAN dealer's explanation of adjusting the cams fixing the noise does not ring true - nor that the stretching of the cam chain will change the CAM timing.

(BTW, does anyone know why Triumph designed the cam timing to be adjustable?  Seems to suggest to me they may want to change overlap for a different application - but then surely they would just change the cam profile?)

But I sure hope the strident top end noise some experience has nothing to do with camshaft sprockets being slotted and coming loose!
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: Jonnybiscuit on November 14, 2012, 01:27:19 PM
*Originally Posted by cdan [+]
What I have heard is that the Triumph coolant, if not changed when specified, can cause corrosion and  engine failure.  That is all I feel comfortable saying now because of the source.  I felt that I would rather have it changed and have one less thing to be concerned about.

There has been a lot of talk (on Sprint & Tig 1050 forums) about the coolant "sludging" and going a muddy brown. Isn't corrosion usually a sign of air (or entrained air) in the system/circulating fluid  :027:

There is a bit of a clue though.....if not changed when specified.... :015:
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: JulianinOttawa on November 14, 2012, 02:56:35 PM
*Originally Posted by wolfexplorer [+]
I was lead to believe it was only the valve clearances that were put off from 10k to 20k. I will find out more shortly though as my 10k is approaching fast.

Just checked tech note 136 which addressed the change of service interval for top end, excerpt follows:

"In order to clarify the situation and answer the question outlined below, we can confirm that the 10K service does not now require valve clearances or cam timing to be checked. These elements are now included on the 20K service. This move has been taken due to increased reliability over greater mileages and enables us to reduce servicing costs where mileage/time related items only need to be done when that milestone is reached. "

Let's hope they put good thread lock on the bolts that secure the cam sprockets to the cam shafts.

Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: Olympus on November 15, 2012, 02:42:26 PM
*Originally Posted by Jonnybiscuit [+]
There has been a lot of talk (on Sprint & Tig 1050 forums) about the coolant "sludging" and going a muddy brown. Isn't corrosion usually a sign of air (or entrained air) in the system/circulating fluid  :027:

There is a bit of a clue though.....if not changed when specified.... :015:

+1 :028: ...and the interval is replacement at 3 years irrespective of mileage.
Air is the cooling system can cause oxidation & discoloured water .... but the single biggest cause is the antifreeze/corrosion inhibitor strength below what is recommended
The coolant in a modern engine running with the correct additive mixture will last ages without discolouring
Not knowing the precise details of owners who have found this problem, it's difficult to say exactly....
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: John Ralph on March 27, 2019, 01:17:45 PM
Mine has started doing this at 1500 miles. Sounds awful. My clutch buzzes too. Not impressed and dissapointed. Would not recommend to others. Dealer said the same thing as Triumph. Should be advertised as rattly and buzzy at least that would be honest.
Title: Re: Triumph's stand on Engine Noise!
Post by: CaptainTrips on March 27, 2019, 04:44:16 PM
*Originally Posted by John Ralph [+]
Mine has started doing this at 1500 miles. Sounds awful. My clutch buzzes too. Not impressed and dissapointed. Would not recommend to others. Dealer said the same thing as Triumph. Should be advertised as rattly and buzzy at least that would be honest.
You do realize that this topic is from seven years ago and applies to early first generation TEX models. If you have an issue with your new T12, I suggest that you post a new topic.